#10 The Decision Dilemma: Why Too Many Options Leave Us Stuck - Jennifer Collins

Episode 10 | 28 Minutes | Mar 4, 2025

Have you ever felt paralyzed by too many choices? You’re not alone. For Gen Z, the pressure to make the perfect decision—whether about career, calling, or life direction—can feel overwhelming. With endless possibilities at their fingertips, many young adults find themselves stuck, afraid of choosing the wrong path and closing off other opportunities.

10: The Decision Dilemma: Why Too Many Options Leave Us Stuck

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of Innovate for Good, we sit down with Jenny Collins, Associate Professor of Intercultural Studies at Taylor University, to unpack what she calls the “decision dilemma.” She explains why having more options often leads to less clarity and how the fear of missing out can turn into vocational paralysis. Jenny also shares practical wisdom on how young adults can break free from indecision, take meaningful steps forward, and trust that God will guide them along the way.

If you’ve ever felt stuck in your career, faith, or future plans, this conversation will help you shift your mindset, release the pressure of perfection, and take your next step with confidence.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Why Gen Z struggles with decision-making and how to overcome “vocational paralysis”

• How biblical fear of the Lord contrasts with today’s culture of anxiety

• What older generations need to know about mentoring Gen Z effectively

• Why Gen Z’s global connectedness is both a strength and a challenge

• How time in nature and spiritual disciplines can help counteract digital overload

• Practical ways to support young adults in stepping into leadership and calling

• About the Guest

  Jenny Collins is an Associate Professor of Intercultural Studies at Taylor University, where she has mentored and equipped students for over two decades. She also serves on the board of MissionWorks and previously directed Taylor University’s Lighthouse International Service Learning Program, sending over a thousand students on cross-cultural mission projects.

  With a background in both computer science and theology, Jenny brings a unique perspective on vocational calling, spiritual formation, and the challenges facing Gen Z today. She has studied the impact of digital culture on young adults, the importance of biblical fear, and how institutions can better engage with a new generation of learners and leaders.

• Episode Transcript

  Thanks for joining us on the Innovate for Good podcast. Today we have Jenny Collins joining us here for a conversation. Jenny is an Associate Professor of Intercultural Studies at Taylor University.

  She also serves on the board of MissionWorks and directed Taylor University's Lighthouse International Service Learning Program from 1999 to 2013. Through which she sent over a thousand students to the mission field on short term projects. So thank you so much for giving us your time today, Jenny, and welcome to the podcast.

  Thank you. It's really great to be here.

  Well, Jenny, so what brought you into the world of higher education? I'm interested in hearing a little bit of your background and how you got to Taylor.

  Back in the 1980s, I decided it would be great to study computer science and systems, and so that's actually what I studied in my undergrad program. It was a time when, computers were pretty new, and A lot was happening, and I really liked math and science, but as I was doing that role, after a while, I was realizing that what I loved most was the teaching aspect of helping people learn how to use computers, and they were not that easy to use in the, 1980s and early 90s, but teaching is what I was gravitating toward within that career, and then I, really was I was interested in biblical studies and theology, and had a pattern of really being in scripture a lot.

  I was learning, too, that mentoring college age students was a lot of fun. It's a great age. Many important, developments are happening in students lives. I loved the students that I was, like, overseeing supervising at work. And, finally, I was really interested in other cultures and whenever working at Taylor and IT there was a chapel about something related to missions or someone from another culture, it was resonating and really moving.

  So I started to pay attention to all of that. Yeah, and it just seemed that the intersection of my love for Bible theology, cultures, and students was working with them in ministry and missions and teaching in those subjects. So then I was able to pursue a master's at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and, I have done a lot of work toward a PhD in missiology as well.

  So you actually started teaching in a different department and then you've come into this department during your time as a professor at Taylor.

  That's right. Yeah. Mainly I was an IT person supporting, employees and their computers, but I did start teaching a computer literacy course. And that's, that was my first real teaching with students. And I did that for a long time. And then after finishing my master's, was able to start teaching some Bible admissions courses while also overseeing that. International service learning program.

  Oh, wonderful. Wow. What a trajectory

  I know, yeah.

  Sure.

  will say my systems training was really helpful for, a big set of short term mission trips all happening at once. It was a giant system with, 120 leaders and students. Six to eight partners on the field and, it was a giant system.

  So there was a lot in my IT career that was, has been really helpful for things I've done since.

  The logistics of sending large volume of students overseas, yeah, that can be a nightmare for somebody who's not systems oriented.

  Yeah. Yeah. So God knew he really does have our futures in his hands. He

  That's really cool. So how long have you been in this department teaching intercultural studies now? Okay,

  on and off since 1998. There were some years when the Lighthouse program was large, and I only taught one intercultural studies course in those years, but now I am back to teaching, three courses in intercultural studies, and I also teach New Testament Survey.

  Were reading your bio on the Taylor website and something that you write is I want students to internalize a biblical view of God's global purposes and to pursue his invitation to make a difference in the world using their vocation, which I love. You've obviously been there for a while, and I imagine that, one of the most rewarding parts of your job is when you see your graduates go on to actually make an impact in the communities where they work and a difference in the world.

  Do you have any examples that come to mind of students that have gone on to do great things like that, that you've taught while, they were at Taylor?

  It's just by God's grace, you know, right? Like, God is the one who really does the work in their lives. But professors, we get to play a tiny role in that, and it's such a privilege. So, there are two students that I worked with and had in class who are both CEOs of mission agencies

  now. And that's been a wonderful thing to see. And then, I have another who is in, regional leadership for a large mission agency in Northern Europe. Then, some who are, just on the ground doing that kind of day in and day out ministry. There are about four in Central Asia. With various kinds of roles and in, Southeast Asia, one doing Bible translation and others doing a lot of just, beautiful ministry in some different types of outreaches.

  I think one of the most unique ones is there's a more recent grad who is in Central Asia now doing what we would call Ethnodoxology. She had a music major. Intercultural Studies minor, and just really wanted to go serve in a Muslim people group. And that particular church is growing, but has very little, innovation in worship music and hymnology.

  And she's gifted, and so she's with a team, there helping to produce albums. of new worship music for this church that is small but really growing in exciting ways. So she works with nationals who are musicians and it's a really lovely work that's happening there in a place that would be surprising if I could tell you the actual country name.

  So that's a neat example of that. And there's also one grad who's really involved with the Lausanne movement. And so he had some responsibility at the recent Lausanne Congress. Yeah, that was, a beautiful thing to observe, and just, know

  that was all happening. Two, people who graduated in the

  spring are already launching into, one is, going into anti trafficking work, and another into, a really neat

  evangelism ministry.

  That's a lot of examples of

  really cool ways.

  I have a bulletin board

  here full of prayer cards

  Oh,

  wow.

  it's easy to think of

  many examples.

  Yeah, I

  imagine that's pretty motivating to keep going on hard days, in your work.

  and a couple of those are

  with one collective, so that's been wonderful too.

  So I know that you've done a good amount of research with Gen Z in addition to serving, serving them, day to day out of your profession.

  For those of us who might not have as much experience with Gen Zers, what would you say are some of the defining characteristics of that generation? Silence.

  version of pretty radical individualism here in American culture, they're taking that maybe to a new level and very intent on self expression with all the opportunities they have for that online.

  They have that incredible, Access to information, and they are the first generation that has gone through puberty and adolescence with a smartphone. So that makes them a little different than millennials who usually didn't get that phone until

  after, puberty. So they're very native to the digital world.

  a strength with that is that they can relate to people of their generation in other cultures in ways previous generations haven't been able to, if those young people of other cultures also had a smartphone when they were growing up. And so they, there is research that's saying that they are more like.

  Their cross cultural counterparts, than any generation has been before, so much more common ground with, Gen Z of other cultures and countries. So there, there's something there that it seems God is going to use. That could be powerful, but it also means that for older generations to relate to Gen Z, it's a little more like relating to a different culture

  than it has been between

  generations in our own culture before.

  So that's a new thing. It's like we need to bring contextualization And all that, we would

  bring to intercultural relationships. To our relationships with Gen Z if we're of a different generation, and they also may not understand that relating to

  the older generations is a lot like relating to a different culture. So we have to help maybe them understand how different

  their, the previous American generations are from them. I think that, generally, Maybe

  among Gen Z total, not just

  believers, there is a real desire

  to just pursue happiness. That's often

  their top goal in life. And then, because they've been fairly overprotected, by the safetyism, Jonathan Haidt calls it, in the anxious generation of our American culture since the 90s, they are pretty risk averse, because they're just not familiar with risk where major things are actually at stake, and where their failure could have consequences.

  And so they're really uncomfortable with risk and ambiguity on the whole. Any one Gen Z person might not, have had that overprotection. But generally that is something that is going on with this culture.

  Those are really interesting observations. Are they, um, things that you've seen in your own students as well as in your research?

  Yeah, I would say that I do see, current students being a little more risk averse and less adventurous, with maybe just some of their, choices, activities, they do tend to play it safe, and, feel pretty comfortable with, some adults around, and then I just have had them often say to me that it feels like it all depends on them.

  And so they're not necessarily, discipled well in the idea that, no, the body of Christ is there for you, and certainly the Lord himself is there for you. And, Yes, we have things that depend on us, but we are allowed to be humans with limitations and make mistakes in the kingdom. And this is where the Lord and the body of Christ come along and compliment our weaknesses with their strengths.

  And when we fail or fall, they come alongside and help us learn from that and go forward. But many of them, because they haven't had many experiences of failure. I just feel like, oh, it all depends on me pulling this off, whatever it might be, a big assignment, or stepping out into a new role, or leadership on campus, or something like that.

  Do you see the effects of COVID, factoring into this at all in terms of, removing the in person community that they've had and making them more and more individualistic, whereas their only community oftentimes is through technology and virtually, does that play a part into their risk aversion or like into how they see themselves?

  I haven't done a lot of research in that area, or seen a lot of research in that area, but it seems like there's a correlation, but I'm speculating there, Just the idea of a global pandemic, you know, that was a new thing and a scary thing and they were at, many of them, a pretty vulnerable age when the world changed.

  And their parents also probably had, never navigated anything like that before. And so I can see how that probably has impacted the risk aversion, part of their sort of tendencies for sure. Gen Z's really skeptical of sort of traditional institutions like the church and big Christian organizations.

  And they are raising some pretty challenging questions about the Christian faith itself. And so one thing that I think they are sensing is the church might be, that The creativity killer that they imagine. And they really are individualistic and focused on creativity and self expression. And they are going to be looking for institutions, organizations that really value creativity.

  Are not going to necessarily kill their new ideas or their, desire for innovation. And yet they are pretty inexperienced in many ways, so they are going to need scaffolding and people to come alongside. And then with big questions about faith, foundational faith issues, I think that they can sense we don't often want to answer those questions because it's uncomfortable and we're not sure sometimes how to handle doubts and those questions and that if they sense that we're trying to change the subject or move away from uncomfortable topics that's going to create more skepticism, I think.

  This is so fascinating, Jenny, what's a top challenge or two that Gen Z faces and we'll need, we'll need to like address, like moving forward in their lives. I'm thinking about just this thing called possibility that's in some of the literature about emerging adulthood in general and how the number of possible options for vocation and career and places they could live has multiplied, from, Some of the previous generations where maybe the options

  just didn't feel as broad and varied. And then there is this fear of missing out

  in our culture for young people. And so it, it is somewhat

  paralyzing. I don't want to miss out, but there

  are so many possibilities. I am overwhelmed, and I don't know where to start or how to

  choose my next step. Especially after college, but even

  after college, maybe moving from their

  first, position into the next one in their

  adult work life. And one author calls it

  vocational meandering, because of this, I don't want to just get stuck in one path, and yet I'm paralyzed because I don't know how to choose. And so I think that's a unique challenge, is how do we help them understand that God can give them many opportunities in a lifetime as he did me, I've had some really different careers so if you have A reasonable lifespan, it's quite possible that what you do for the first several years isn't going to lock you into anything, and God will, progressively give you more revelation and lead you into next steps, in ways that can be really beautiful and fulfilling.

  And beauty is something they're searching for, as is, making a unique impact in the world, something that is unique to them.

  I find myself having that conversation with Gen Z ers all the time.

  Yep. Yeah.

  next is really just that. It's just one next step and that God will be present with them. God will meet them there. God will open up more doors for them, in days to come.

  And that they don't need to feel the pressure and the weight of choosing, everything right now.

  Yeah, that's great. Keep having that conversation. I think they need to hear it a lot of times. And I'm trying to figure out how it was different when I was young, but I feel like we were just happy to have an opportunity. And, we just, I don't know, you just didn't worry so much maybe. And I'm not sure why if, but maybe because they're pursuing that very unique contribution.

  They're more entrepreneurial. And yeah, are wanting that individual, way to impact.

  Yeah.

  it is interesting. I've found myself, five years ago when I was in classrooms, I would focus primarily, I would give a missions challenge and talk about, well, here's where you could go and serve. And of course, I still do some of that, but I've just in the last couple 12 months, I would say part of my talk in almost every class is coaching the students on how to think about the future and it wasn't like there wasn't like a light bulb that went off in my mind that said, this is what I should do.

  Now. It just happened as I learned where the students were, what professors shared with me about where their students were. And it just naturally happened. Like Carly said, it's this is, a step that can be helpful for them. I think.

  You've really uncovered this sense of risk aversion that, that Gen Z so often struggles with. And then you've done some comparison on what genuine fear of the Lord can look like and comparing the fear that, that can be so paralyzing for those in the Generation Z and, and in many of our lives.

  So can you describe for us, just the comparison, that you found and what true fear of the Lord can look like?

  Yeah, sure. You know, I got interested in fear and a biblical theology of fear because one of the most common commands in the Bible is that we should fear the Lord or that the fear of the Lord is something really important, like the beginning of wisdom. So about 200 times it comes up, but then, 360 times it comes up that we should not be afraid or not fear.

  And so that tension seemed important to me. And I hadn't seen a lot of real, in depth work on that tension, and it seems like often it's, not explored or examined. So I was interested in that. And I also have learned how often in our Christian lives, balance is important, finding a biblical balance between two truths.

  And god is very imminent, present. He is a friend. He's

  also transcendent and incredibly, incomprehensible in His greatness. And, a lot of times we get off track if we can't stay in balance with His imminence and transcendence. And I think out of a sense of wanting to encourage young people, a lot of, Gen Z do believe God is present and he's

  a friend. But maybe they've lost a sense of his greatness and power. And so when he is more of our buddy and we treat him a bit more casually, we can make him too small and too safe in the way that we conceive of him. And then those, things in the world that we

  fear can become greater in how we perceive them.

  And, we forget God's power and greatness for That, fear of The things in the world so misplaced fears and destructive fears can grow and The fear of the Lord can shrink And so I just feel that in what I've been studying recovering the fear of the Lord is helpful for, diminishing then those misplaced and destructive fears.

  What is it to fear biblically and rightly? What is it to be faithful to scripture around fear? And, anxiety and fear aren't quite the same thing, according to psychologists. It seems that anxiety is a little bit more of a generalized vague. Concern and stress about things that are harder to identify.

  An unknown future is part of that. Whereas fear might be more specific and can be named like I'm afraid of this or that. But I have not done a lot of, real precision on that, but I will just say that I think the fear of the Lord is deeper than we often, imagine. We would often say, I think in the American church, it's a deep reverence for God.

  And I do think it's that. I think it's worship, but there's something about me that wants to say there's more, because I also have done some It's a study on the word tremble in scripture, and tremble is there more than we know. Like rejoice and tremble are together in the Psalms, and when Jesus calmed the storm in Mark four, the disciples were terrified and said, who is this? So there's an actual reference to things that sound like fear, connected with the Lord. And, uh, so I don't know about you, but a lot of Gen Z that in my life have church hurt. So they've seen hypocrisy or, forms of spiritual abuse or other things that have been painful in the church. Is maybe the American church struggling with those things because we actually don't fear the Lord deeply?

  In the sense of actual trembling of his heart. Power and greatness. So I want to, I want to help people recall how, how glorious God actually is. And I like to ask people, how would you define God's glory? Because we don't talk about it enough. And it's like the collective colossal weight of all the magnitude of his amazing character traits.

  His being all powerful, all knowing, all present, all good. And then having this incredible redemptive mission. And just forgetting that and making him too small, I think, leads us maybe to some double mindedness in the church, some hypocrisy, some of those scandals that we see happening.

  And I would say a lot of the people involved in those negative things have probably worshipped the Lord deeply. They've sung those choruses, they've raised their hands, and yet they haven't really feared, His maybe, holiness, especially. Yeah, I could stop there, but that's some of what I've been discovering and thinking about.

  So Jenny, what are some practical ways that, those of us listening, to this episode, most of our audience is Gen Z. And people that are hearing this

  message, how can they pursue a healthy fear of God? And how can those of us

  that are supporting them, help

  them in that pursuit.

  Yeah, one time when I talked on this, I

  used some R words, And one was relate, or

  relationship. One of the Gen Z young people in my life

  has said that, Gen Z is desperate for spiritual parents And so to the Gen Z ers listening, I would say, seek some mentoring

  from mature believers. Find someone

  who's especially strong in some of your weak

  areas. That's a really neat way to think about who you'd like to have as a mentor. Somebody who's walked

  through some things that you're afraid of or that you know is an area where you have growth and for those doing the mentoring, I would just say avoid the

  information download. Listen well, and As you relate with Gen Z, help them identify what makes them fearful and anxious.

  A lot of time it is a fairly vague sense, and their lives are so busy that they haven't actually stopped to identify what, what makes them afraid. That can be a really important first step. And then, next I would say, God's revelation. So go to his word. I've had Gen Z respond really well to just good old Bible teaching about fear.

  And I first started noticing this fear topic when I was reading the old Testament and things just continually go. wrong with God's people. And almost every time it goes south, the wrong direction, it's because one of God's people became afraid of something other than God. And then, made choices, and just, it all started to fall apart.

  And so, I really just would say go into the word, God's revelation, together. And also, then his natural revelation in creation is another important thing to do. We're on our devices a lot, no matter what our age. And we need to set them aside and actually go outside and be restored through, God's revelation in creation because, Psalm 19 reminds us that the heavens declare His glory.

  We apprehend or begin to grasp His greatness when we are in creation in ways that we don't. When we're indoors and looking at devices. And so, I would just encourage time in creation. There's a whole movement in the secular world right now, promoting going on awe walks. Where people go out and just are awed by nature.

  And there's actually scientific research showing that it's calming and really good for anxiety. And of course it is, because the scriptures tell us this. But even the secular literature and leaders in psychology are recognizing this. Spend time in creation. And there we are, starting to unwind the knots of stress and fear as we're breathing in.

  And then we're starting to realize, wow, God could create all of this, so he can probably handle what I'm afraid of. And that's just really powerful.

  I was actually thinking when you were talking about avoiding information download,

  In the ways that, we support Gen Z, it's so easy to fall into that trap of just giving unsolicited advice. And not letting people discover truths on their own and just being a helpful piece of that puzzle rather than, dumping our experiences and our lessons that we've learned onto them. But it's true, like for any generation, but especially Gen Z, really like the more that they can learn and discover about themselves, about the Lord, about the world on their own, maybe with some help along the way, but just them having the realizations is really going to be. The best way for them to uncover truths and for them to really see a change and transformation, in their own lives. So that's just a super helpful reminder for people like Mark and I and our coaching roles, to avoid, dumping stuff on to them, but really just be a helpful piece of them, yeah, learning on their own.

  Yeah. One of my friends who researches Gen Z more than I do, Jolene Airlocker. She's a co author of Mobilizing Gen Z, that book. She says, when Gen Z is talking, Gen Z is learning. So that's been so key for me. You know, I'm an older professor. I have one style of teaching that, you know, I used for a lot of years, and I'm really trying to learn how to change that.

  Because discover, that was a great word you used, is Discovering is so important for them, and they do have access to the information. But yeah, I think they need some guidelines, they need some scaffolding as they're growing. Yeah, and then another way to describe being out in God's creation I would just say is, developing habits of pursuing wonder.

  And doing that in nature do you help us grasp more of God's power and then hope, in that power for what is causing us anxiety and fear. , 📍 📍 📍 so I, uh, changed an assignment and I set my, Bible students out on an awl walk. And had them report afterwards how they were changed physically, and emotionally, and mentally, and spiritually through that, after they reflected on some scripture about God's creation.

  And they loved it, and they did find it very calming. You know, when we're on our devices, we're really listening to much of the world's script. about what's real. And, um, we need a different script. And I think God's revelation in scripture and in creation are key. Yeah.

  makes so much sense to me.

  Yeah. Another R word I'll throw out is help Gen Z or Gen Z yourselves. Remember when God has delivered you from past near misses or past storms of challenge. So I think as we get older, we maybe have more to remember, right? So we do more remembering, but we all are commanded often in scripture to remember the deeds of the Lord and his mighty arm and the way he delivered us in the past.

  That also builds and fortifies our souls around fear and risk and anxiety. So just stopping to consider what great things God has done for us, that. Doing it alone and together in community is very encouraging and helps us build courage, I think. And then I would say to mentors, remind Gen Z of all they have to offer, and yet that it doesn't all depend on them.

  They can serve in community and with the Lord's help, but they have so much to offer, and they are uniquely prepared to reach their own generation in the ways none of the rest of us are. And call out any genuine growth. that you see in young adults and, help them, recognize the accomplishments, the contributions, their creative, creativity that they're bringing, and then, maybe have some scaffolding in place as you give them more responsibility, more, opportunities where something real is actually at stake, but you have to slowly remove that scaffolding and give them more and more responsibility.

  And that's how they will develop some confidence and courage as well.

  I think that's really interesting that you said to intentionally remember the things that God has done because I think it's in our human nature to forget. And so it really goes counter to the way that we're wired to Set aside time and focus on remembering the things of the past. And, that's like how our forefathers passed along the faith is like telling the stories of what God has done for them to the next generation and the next generation, otherwise it would be forgotten.

  And so even in our own lives. And in the whole history of our faith, like we need to be intentionally setting aside that time in order to, yeah, in order to move forward in faith, knowing that God has provided for us and that God has, guided us and delivered us, into where, we are today.

  So I think that is such a helpful reminder.

  Also love the remind piece, and the value of speaking into. And you, I'm tying that together with a comment you made a few minutes ago, Jenny, about how Gen Z is looking for, I forget the word. you use, like parents or people to lead them or mentor them. And so that, that reminding, speaking into their lives can be a part of that process of, being an older person.

  Caregiver or someone who brings care to them and speaks into their life. That's I love that.

  Yeah, it's a form of spiritual parenting. Yeah, that some

  are very desperate for. They can't have too many caring adults in their lives, like you can't have too many. It's just the more you have the better.

  Wow. Thank you. I appreciate not just like the theory and the study that you've done, but also the application side of it.

  Um, I think that's really helpful.

  Oh, you're so welcome. This has been fun. I appreciate the chance.

  Yeah, it's like we're sitting in um highlights of jenny collins, Professor experience in teaching us and, but it's, yeah, it's been a refresher. It's like I'm back in Bible college with a refresher on things that are really important. And so thank you, Jenny.

  My pleasure. This was fun. Thanks for the opportunity. ​

• Links & References

  Mobilizing Gen Z: Challenges & Opportunities in the Next Generation – Jolene Erlacher

  Rejoice & Tremble: The Surprising Good News of the Fear of the Lord – Michael Reeves

  You Are Not Your Own: Belonging to God in an Inhuman World – Alan Noble

  Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in Digital Babylon – David Kinnaman & Mark Matlock

  Taylor University’s Lighthouse Program – Learn more about short-term international service projects

More Episodes from One Collective

#9 Finding Meaning in Suffering - A Social Worker's Perspective

Episode 9 | 28 Minutes | Feb 18, 2025

Suffering is inevitable, but for social workers, it’s also part of the job. Every day, they step into the hardest moments of people’s lives—offering support, navigating loss, and witnessing transformation. But in walking through suffering with others, they, too, are changed.

9: Finding Meaning in Suffering - A Social Worker's Perspective

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of Innovate for Good, Cedarville University professor Melissa Brown shares how facing suffering—both personally and professionally—shapes who we become. From hospice care to the classroom, she reveals how hardship builds resilience, deepens compassion, and strengthens faith.

Whether you're exploring social work or seeking purpose in life's challenges, this conversation offers practical wisdom and encouragement.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Why flexibility is essential in your career and faith journey

• How Gen Z’s strengths in advocacy and technology are reshaping social work

• What it really means to engage with people who think differently than you

• How social workers play a vital role in ministry—even in secular settings

• Why obedience to God doesn’t always mean an easy path

• How to build the right skills and mindset for a life of service

• About the Guest

  Melissa Brown is a professor of social work at Cedarville University in Ohio, where she also serves as a field coordinator for students pursuing international social work internships in countries like India, Uganda, and Ecuador. Before stepping into academia, Melissa worked extensively in geriatrics, hospice care, and bereavement services, offering support to individuals at some of life’s hardest moments.

  Her passion lies in equipping the next generation of social workers—not only with the technical skills they need but with a deep understanding of how faith can shape their approach to helping others. Through her own personal journey, including adopting a child from China, Melissa has learned firsthand how flexibility, faith, and compassion are essential tools for both life and career.

• Episode Transcript

  Today we have Melissa Brown joining us.

  Melissa has worked for a number of years in social work, serving the elderly population along with children and terminally ill patients. She is now a professor of social work at Cedarville University in Ohio. One of her roles at Cedarville is that of field coordinator for students doing international social work internships in places like India, Uganda, or Ecuador.

  One Collective has had the opportunity to present to Melissa's Social Work students, and today we're really glad that she's joined us here. So welcome, Melissa.

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

  Melissa, can you just tell us a little bit about you and your background and it may overlap with what Carly mentioned, and maybe including your, some of the hospice and bereavement care work that you've done.

  So I originally came to Cedarville and completed my undergraduate degree in social work here at Cedarville. And I thought when I was a student that I would want to practice in mental health. I thought I'd be working with children and adolescents. But when I graduated, my husband, we had met when we were young.

  He was starting school. He worked while I came to school and then he was starting school and I was going to work. So at the time, the job that I found was working in geriatrics and I worked at the area agency on aging, providing case management services and assessments for older adults that were living in an assisted living environment.

  And I did that for a couple of years. And then a former coworker reached out and asked if I'd be interested in transitioning to hospice. I worked at a local hospice here for a number of years and went back to graduate school while I was in graduate school. I should have been listening to the professor, but what I was really doing was looking at the Cedarville website.

  I thought I would love to go back and work at Cedarville. I wonder what some of the job qualifications would be. I was in a marriage and family therapy class and we were talking about therapy and counseling. And so I was just thinking, I wonder what Cedarville's criteria would be for a counselor. And anyway, I was just looking at the website and it turned out that they had an opening.

  And so I. unwisely used my class time to apply for a job, probably not my best student moments, and applied for a job in our counseling services department at Cedarville. And that's how I landed up back here.

  So that's counseling services offered to students when they're studying at Cedarville.

  That's correct. Our residence life department has counseling services that's available to any student here at Cedarville at no cost to them. It's a wonderful benefit for our students here.

  So how long were you in that role?

  I work there full time for. A year, and then I did part time the next year. I was pregnant with, who is now my eight year old daughter, Piper. So in the spring semester, I was out most of the time on maternity leave. One year full time, and then I transitioned to part time for the following year.

  Then what led you back into teaching, or I guess what led you to teaching, students in a university setting in the social work department? What was the road to that position? Okay.

  former professors, who's now my colleague, Professor George Huff, he came over to see me. And he made an appointment and walked over to my counseling office and said that we have an opening. Would you ever consider? And wasn't really on my radar, but I adjuncted an online class to just get my feet wet, see what I thought about it.

  And I really enjoyed it.

  What was that first class?

  Concepts of chemical dependency. So it's a class for students to have a better understanding of how we work with clients who are. to substances.

  Yeah. So you jumped right in.

  That's right. And I still teach that class over the summer to this day. So it was a, an entry point. And I still, I'm still teaching that class each summer.

  Melissa, what, as you teach your students, what excites you about working with them? I visited, I was in your class once and I was the guest speaker.

  So I was thinking, okay, I'm going to get up there pretty soon to talk. But then you took these several minutes to really listen to your students as they shared things they were praying about. And then you would they want they wanted prayer for and then you would respond to them and ask for, little follow ups.

  And how are you doing? And I was, that really struck me and it makes me wonder, what, what is your hope for these students? What do you love about this role and your care for the students?

  One of my favorite things about teaching students at Cedarville is that we want to prepare our students to practice in social work, which I love. But from a business perspective, biblical worldview, and I love that Cedarville is committed to the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ. I don't think that I could teach social work at a non Christian school because the ability to integrate biblically is paramount to understanding our clients and who they are and where they come from and where we hope.

  For them to ultimately go, I love teaching students who are new because I still remember what it was like to be new, though it was a while ago when I was a student, there have still been many challenges along the way, which I was the new person. Nobody likes to feel that they don't have full confidence in what they're doing.

  Nobody likes to make mistakes, but I have been the beneficiary of. of wonderful cheerleaders over my lifetime, showing me that you might've made a mistake, but the focus is not on what you did wrong, but what can you learn from it? And I want to do the same for my students. I want to come alongside them and primarily encourage their walk with the Lord and their spiritual development, but also instill skills so that they are effective, useful helpers.

  Yeah.

  A as you think of the students in your classes, in the generation that's coming up that you are teaching, what are some traits that are unique to them or that, could really be used in the field of social work that you see in your students?

  Well, a couple of strengths that I see with Gen Z who are my current students is it never ceases to amaze me how quick they can adapt to technology and their ability to learn things so quickly. They can if there's a new database that we're using, they could do it one time and it seems like they just know the ins and outs right away.

  And so I think that their ability to know and understand technology and adapt to different work environments, they will be able to get up to speed very quickly. which I think is a good asset for them that they can adapt to, the world and that there's less intimidation of trying new things, when it comes to technology.

  I do think that Gen Z is also very committed to social causes, whether that's social justice or, the environment or client climate change, diversity.

  I think that they're very comfortable using a variety of platforms like social media to advocate for change and to push for accountability. And I think that their awareness of these challenges and their willingness to engage in activism is a defining strength for Gen Z.

  They won't sit idly by and allow others to take advantage of the vulnerable, which is a core principle for social work. We want to advocate for the marginalized and the oppressed.

  Every generation has challenges, but also many strengths. As social workers, we want to assess and we want to operate from a strengths based perspective.

  It's very easy to see liabilities, whether that's with a generation or a group or even individuals. Okay. How easy it is to criticize, but how difficult it can be to point out strengths. And I'm not immune to criticizing Gen Z or baby boomers or someday it'll be Generation Alpha. We will all find a bone to pick, but hopefully we can also find significant strengths that we can bring to the table to work together.

  Okay.

  to shape the minds and hearts of people.

  It's a great perspective, and I think we've seen that ring true with the students that we're engaging with as serving coaches walking with them as they're exploring potential serving opportunities. With one collective and even with your students in particular, we've seen, just the hunger, to be a part of the solution, to various injustices they're seeing around the world and, to stand up for the vulnerable and the oppressed.

  And, we've seen that in your students. So it's very encouraging to see. That you feel the same way and, that this is a trait that we're noticing across the board with Gen Z. So that's exciting. So Melissa, could you tell us about a lesson or two that you've learned along the way throughout your career so far? As you've, transitioned through various roles and now you are where you are instructing future students and future social workers.

  I tend to be a very driven person. The flip side of that is I can be a little stubborn. I know what I want and I will work hard to. to work towards a goal. And something that the Lord has had to develop in me over the years is flexibility.

  We know from Proverbs 16 that man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps. And I said at the beginning that when I started in social work, I was sure that I would work in mental health with children and adolescents. And the Lord has yet to bring that to be my exclusive. role. And I have had to hold my plans very loosely.

  I have had a handful of social work jobs that I've really enjoyed. My husband and I also adopted a child from China that has come with a lot of joys, but a lot of challenges. And I think that if the Lord had shown me when I was 20, and I was at Cedarville, and I was questioning all the time, what am I going to do with my life?

  Who am I going to be? Or this is who I'm going to be. How am I going to get there? If the Lord had opened up a picture frame to where my life is right now, I don't think I would have been very excited about it, thinking that's not what I really wanted for myself at all. I wouldn't have chosen that. But as I look back on my life, Now, having gone through a variety of seasons and changes, I can receive it with joy because I have made many relationships along the way.

  I've met a lot of wonderful people and I've seen the Lord work. tremendous things in my life to bring my family or myself where I am now. And so one of the greatest lessons that the Lord has taught me and is still teaching me is to be flexible. The other one would be that the Lord is still working out my understanding of the role of suffering.

  For the life of the believer and the unbeliever. One of the classes that I've taught here before is crisis intervention. And I've shared with my students that, to be a good social worker or really even just making it through the church, or just this world is this understanding of the role of suffering. And I know it's talked about in philosophy classes and many people will use this as. a cornerstone for why they do or do not believe in God. But I often tell my students that I have had patients, that are from the cradle to the grave. And sometimes that distance is very small. And when I started out in hospice and I still work in hospice and also at our children's hospital, people pass away that to the human mindset seems not right.

  If they're taken too soon or it doesn't seem to fit in my worldview of, what life should be.

  And the Lord has had to work out a lot of reframing perspectives in my head and in my heart of how the Lord uses some of the most difficult and challenging circumstances to reveal himself and to point others to him.

  And I'm thankful for that. I have gotten to see the Lord work in ways that. I would have never expected, social workers have a front row seat to suffering and you see some of the worst. And where I can be thankful for that is I can also see that this is not the world that God designed. I see why God designed the order that he did because this is not what he wanted.

  But I can also see how God redeems it and brings people to himself.

  Would you be comfortable sharing a little bit more of your personal story with adoption?

  And just how the Lord has worked in your family?

  Sure. So when I was in my first year at Cedarville, one of my social work friends that attended my church posted in the church Facebook group that there was a child from China that was needing to come temporarily for burn treatment. He was, around four or five at the time. And so our understanding is that he'd be coming in the summer for burn treatment. So my husband, who is working part time and then I was working full time at Cedarville, is going to be off over the summer. And so we agreed to host this child. He ended up staying for about 15 months. And then he went home, back to China and his parents had expressed interest in him staying permanently when he came when he was five, and then turned six.

  But that was at the time we're like, we have a one year old, a three year old. We just did not feel that was what, where the Lord was leading us at the time. And so he returned home to his family in China. And three years later, we received some notifications that he had to come back. So in 2018, he returned for additional surgeries, reconstructive surgeries for his face. And over the course of the time he was here, we had been approached many times by his family asking if we would consider adopting him. And for a variety of reasons, my husband and I said no. You know, we felt that it would be best for him to return to his home culture and his family. family, but we were approached a final time in 2022.

  And after praying about it and discussing it, we decided that we would move forward with an adoption. And so last year in August of 2023, the adoption was finalized.

  And how old is he now?

  Joey is now 14.

  Yes. Wow. So this came knocking on your door. It wasn't something you sought out.

  Yeah,

  Yeah. And, we love Joey and the Lord knit our hearts to his right away when he came. But, working in social work, I also recognize having seen a lot of children go through, foster care that no matter the circumstances that a child comes from, many of them still crave their biological families.

  And so even though my husband and I from the outside had some economic advantages, we recognize that the deepest desire of a child is to be with their family. And so we didn't want to take the easy road to say just because we have some opportunities that he doesn't means that he automatically would be a better fit here.

  But over the course of years and seeing some of the special needs that he had and, the way in which his parents approached asking us to. Please consider it. We really felt that the Lord was tugging on our hearts to be obedient in this way. So again, it was not, I had mentioned that sometimes we look back in our life, we would not have picked it.

  Joey is now the eldest. And so it upset the birth order, which came with a lot of challenges with him being the. And it is not a decision that my children took lightly either. It was a very difficult decision for all of us to make. And I think sometimes when something doesn't feel easy, it doesn't feel right.

  Um, and sometimes following the Lord will come at a cost that we are not expecting to pay. And so we love Joey and we want what's best for him. And the Lord just opened a lot of doors showing that the next step would be for us to pursue a legal adoption.

  That's a really important point about something not feeling right because it's not easy for us that we assume that if it's the right road that God will line everything up and it will be the simplest answer but it's not. Many times that's not the case and there is, sacrifices that are involved and, that it does come with, trust and obedience

  yes. And sometimes, obedience is It's hard. When I was a college student, I remember thinking that obedience would seem so obvious because it would in many ways make my life easier, but obedience always makes our life better, but it's not always the easiest choice.

  Melissa, you've mentioned the concept of, having multiple tools in your toolbox to be able to serve God in the ways that he's leading you. Talk to us a little bit about that. What would be some tools that you would say maybe every Christian should have in their toolbox, and then are there some more specifically really helpful for people going into social work or ministry?

  Yeah. Can you open that up for us?

  So I think a basic life skill that everybody needs would be the ability to engage others. Even if we believe differently, even if we see the world differently, we recognize that just because somebody thinks differently about a social problem or political issue or even a religious topic. That doesn't mean that we have to be afraid or that is some time somehow going to compromise our belief about a topic.

  So the ability to engage someone, whether that's a different gender, a different sexual orientation, a different race, a different language, the ability to meet them where they're at, not so that we can change their mind, but because they're made it. In God's image and they are a fellow image bearer. So the ability to engage with another person, I think, is so critical and the ability to hear things without being defensive, I think, is also very important in regards to social work.

  I think our ability to. Not react. So number one, hopefully they have the ability to engage with others. But then two, the self restraint from needing to fix something right away, to start meeting people where they're at, to hear where they're coming from, and to do a thorough assessment so that we're not just jumping in and fixing it, but that we're truly meeting them on their level.

  While also maintaining our composure. You know, over the years I've heard a lot of shocking things, but if I were to show that reaction on my face, that would really sever that ability to provide support and minister to them. So I think some such important life skills or the ability to engage and just the ability to.

  To be with people in the moment,

  That's, that's so good. I, I'm thinking of the trait of kindness and maybe that is a part of how you envision a healthy engagement with people, but there is so much harshness in so many relationships and in our culture today that kindness as we engage with people seems to be something that can go really far.

  I would agree. And, that's also a really good gauge for when you're meeting with other people to see their receptiveness, when I'm talking with other believers. The fruit of the spirit will be evident in our lives. You mentioned kindness, which of course is one of the fruits of the spirit, but patience, self control.

  When I encounter other people that are lacking those character traits or those, the fruits in their lives, I recognize that my conversation is probably going to be limited, meaning I'm not going to get very far in a meaningful discussion. And I need to approach that with some wisdom, but you're exactly right.

  We are looking, to meet people where they're at. Proverbs 15 one. We know that a soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up strife. Memorizing 15 one is good for anybody in ministry. We recognize that reacting and being quick tempered is not a spiritual gift. If anything, that's the opposite of how we want to come across.

  I appreciate your raising the topic of the fruit of the spirit. And that's something that will grow in students lives. Over the decades, it's beginning now, or it has begun in their lives, but that's really like a long term perspective for a student who's taking life 1 year at a time, and they're focused on like their exam today and their graduation this semester.

  We learn this perspective, of course, the fruit of the spirit by living it and by God producing this fruit from within us. He produces it. It's his fruit. And then also by hearing stories and internalizing stories of others who have grown in these areas. I'm wondering, For students who, like, how do you talk about the fruit of the spirit with in growing the fruit of the spirit with students who are really pretty early on in their young adult growth pathway?

  So number one, how do we get to know who God is through reading his word? God reveals himself. And so when someone is early on in their journey or at the end of their journey reading God's word and being faithful to living out what God has planned for us. And so how do I teach the fruit of the spirit would be through studying God's word, but then also obedience.

  I think that when we are living our lives, surrender to the Lord, we are going to be serving his people.

  It's

  amazing. Related topic. Self awareness, we have the potential to grow in our awareness of who we are and these traits through lived experiences, through taking in scripture and seeing what God says and saying, here's my life experience and it's, can be a really bumpy ride, but it takes time to grow fruit.

  And so it's through this lived experience that we have and our life with God, that we have the opportunity to grow in our awareness and grow in the fruit of the spirit.

  Yeah, there's no shortcuts to growing in the Lord. And when I was a student at Cedarville, Dr. Bill Brown used to say often that a faithful life is comprised of faithful days. which leads to faithful weeks, which leads to faithful months, which leads to faithful years, which will lead to a faithful life.

  You'll never become tomorrow who you're not becoming today. And he would say that to us often, essentially just reminding us that again, there are no shortcuts. And so we're never going to wake up. Tomorrow and say, okay, today I am going to decide that I'm going to have a faithful life and that will

  Yeah. Yeah.

  It is a daily surrender and a daily walk with the Lord I have mentioned lessons that I've learned over the last 15, 16 years in social work, but Lord willing, I will still have another 30 years ahead of me. So how I answer the question then is probably different than how I would even answer the question

  absolutely.

  And that's a wonderful thing. We see how God has been faithful to his saints. But again, it's, there's nothing intrinsically more special about them than anybody else. Think of the disciples, who they were when they started is not who they were when they ended. But it's not because they were these wonderful people with faith that we could never aspire to.

  It 100 percent is the transforming power. of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with who they were as humans and everything to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, in their lives. And so just being faithful to where the Lord calls you, that's. That's all you can do. Be faithful with the little that he has given to you in that moment.

  And when you're a student, I remember getting very restless, thinking that sometimes I'm wasting my time. I could be going out and reaching the world. I could be going out and feeding the poor. You know, why am I sitting here going to class every day? And it's because I was building the tools in my toolbox.

  Yeah.

  And I was developing the skills that I needed to be able to go out later. And that was not a waste of my time. That was part of the Holy Spirit and the Lord developing skills. in my life. We know Jesus was a carpenter before he started his ministry, but Jesus was not born as a newborn as a carpenter. He had to learn the trade and he became a carpenter eventually, but even Jesus himself did not operate that hammer as a one day old child, so it takes some time to learn the practical things of this world.

  I'm curious, like, what does ministry look like as a social worker in the world who is a follower of Jesus? Maybe particularly in America or, if there's even examples abroad, I know that you supervise students who have done an international experience.

  How do they, like, to others practically using these tools that they've learned. What does ministry, yeah, look like on a daily basis for somebody who's, following the path of a social worker.

  That's a really good question, and there's not one very specific answer. I would say that I am one link in a very long chain. For instance, when I meet with a family at the children's hospital after something very bad has happened, I am not the end all be all, meaning that I am not the only person in their life that can both help them, support them, and minister to them.

  So my role in the moment is to be present with them in their pain, to offer compassion, and then also the power of follow up resources, who I refer them to next. Is, very instrumental in my practice. And so for some families that are open to meeting with another believer or following up with a Christian resource, that is certainly a good starting point. I had mentioned earlier being faithful to the role that the Lord has called you to. I think that we all crave fulfilling the role of being the harvester. That is, we share the gospel and we lead others to Christ, but we also know that. Though the field is ripe for harvest, there are many steps to bringing the seed to harvest.

  There's planters, there's waterers. Sometimes I am a planter and sometimes I'm a waterer, but I'm not always the harvester. And so I cannot judge the effectiveness on my role of, did my client accept Christ as their savior? Because that is not the only role. And the harvest is being the picker. There are many roles along the way.

  And so being faithful to the role that the Lord has called me to in that moment, and sometimes it is a harvester, but many times it's not. And that doesn't make it any less important.

  I want to ask about something different. We heard from another social work professor about using the strengths perspective to help people solve problems. And that could be your clients, or it could be yourself, or it could be anyone, who uses this approach to tackle a problem in their life.

  So after learning the concept, in social work and then teaching others to think this way, have you seen it in your own life? Be instrumental, in, in using a strengths perspective to, to address your own challenges.

  Let me start by saying the Lord created us all with gifts and abilities, and sometimes our greatest strengths can also be our greatest liabilities. I tend to be a verbal communicator and a verbal processor. The flip side of that is I can put my foot in my mouth and say things when I shouldn't or not how I wish that I said it.

  And, I've come alongside students that are the opposite and they've said, I hate that I freeze up. And in my mind, I'm thinking, I wish I could freeze up sometimes I have the opposite problem. And so in my own life. Yes, I see that the Lord has given me some gifting, but it has not come without its fair share of challenges.

  And so I have been so fortunate to have had a couple of people in my life come alongside me. One is my dear coworker, Professor Huff, who has pointed out lovingly when it, My liability piece is showing, but also when he has provided encouragement of that is such an area of giftedness for you. You are able to do that so well.

  And so my hope is that I'm able to be a cheerleader. I have a strong personality and. I was the third in my family and probably appeared that I was probably the hardest to get along with because I had a lot of ideas and it had to be my way.

  And as now as a parent, I can see what a challenge that is to parent a child That is so strong willed, but it wasn't until I was in college where I fully heard what a strength that could be if I allowed the Lord to use that for his glory, as opposed to just hearing what a liability and I needed to get this out.

  You know, you're going to have to figure out how to. this out of you. It was the first time someone really said, do you know what a gift this would be in social work? And I, I never did. I never really thought about that. We had talked about briefly that I had worked in hospice

  care and sometimes having end of life discussions are very hard and to talk about death and dying is very taboo and to be with families at the bedside when their young child or baby has died.

  It's very difficult, but the Lord has used some of that wiring. That he knows my frame and he made me that way. And I don't always use it for his glory, though. I would like to, and hopefully as I get older, I'm using it for his glory and not my own more and more, or to just use it as a platform to state my opinion.

  But, um, you know, the Lord has, has. strategically put me in situations where I have to be a little bit more bold than maybe some social workers would like to be, to say things that are hard or they don't want to. And it has served the Lord well, it has served my profession well, and I can only thank him for that.

  You know, you've given us a lot to think about here and, some of your own life lessons and advice comes from your experience and walking with the Lord. Is there any like final parting words or advice you would want to give to young people who are navigating significant choices as they transition from teen to young adult and going on in their careers and any words of advice for them?

  Well, I have many just because I remember how hard it was to be a young adult. I felt that anxiety of needing to know what I was doing and to plan my life and to know. And I just want to encourage you that whatever you pick now, if it's a major or if it's are you going to go on this trip or take this internship, that making a decision is not going to place you on a plan B.

  path for life. Where the Lord wants you, He will bring you to. I had mentioned Proverbs 16. 9, that man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps. And the Lord will lead you where He wants you to be. So take courage. It's okay to try things just to see if you like it. I know how anxious we have become as a culture of, um, in the world of social media that we live in, knowing that we are hyper judged and hyper criticized and we want to have our life smoothed out, but just know that that this is a great time to just get your feet wet and try new things.

  Try something that you might not normally try. Take a class to just expand your thinking and your critical thinking skills. My hope for you is that you will not be held back by the fear of the unknown or the fear of what others might think or say. My hope is that you will take advantage of opportunities.

  Recognizing that confidence will come as you learn new things. And so even if something is hard to try, try it anyway, and you will still learn new things. And you may decide it's not for you, and that's okay. Maybe you take a class and you're like, yes, I am sure now that I hate crochet. That's fine, but now you know!

  And it's not just a guess, now you know. So try something.

  And do things that scare you, too.

  Yeah! That's right. And the Lord does not slumber if this is something that if you're walking with the Lord and pursuing, his plan for you, he's not going to make his will known. By talking to you. in a dream and that you slept through, he will lead you where he wants you to be. And not everything is a moral decision.

  God is not going to be upset with you if you pick a prison over a juvenile detention center. And it's good to try things to go outside of the box.

  Thank you. This was really helpful, I think, for both us and our listeners, which are generally students. So thank you for sharing your wisdom, for sharing your experiences, the lessons you've learned, and yeah, just words of advice for our audience. We really appreciate your time today.

• Links & References

  • Learn more about Melissa

  • The Strengths Perspective in Social Work Practice by Dennis Saleebey

  • Social Work as Ministry: A Guide for Faith-Based Service by John Harris

  • National Association of Social Workers (NASW)

More Episodes from One Collective

#8 What Students Need to Know About Serving the Vulnerable - Carol Sisson

Episode 8 | 28 Minutes | Jan 28, 2025

How can you align your career with your calling to serve the vulnerable? Many of us feel drawn to helping others but struggle to find ways to integrate that into our lives and work.

8: What Students Need to Know About Serving the Vulnerable - Carol Sisson

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of Innovate for Good, Dr. Carol Sisson, director of the Orphaned and Vulnerable Children Program at Taylor University, shares practical advice on connecting your education, faith, and skills to meaningful work.

This conversation will help you think practically about your next steps and how to approach your career with clarity, purpose, and a mindset of service.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• How Dr. Carol Sisson's upbringing and faith shaped her passion for serving vulnerable populations

• The unique blend of education and discipleship at Taylor University

• Practical ways to bring God’s heart for the vulnerable into your everyday life

• Why mentorship and modeling can spark lifelong change in others

• The importance of seeing missions and social justice as interconnected

• How the next generation is being prepared to lead with compassion and humility

• Dr. Sisson’s advice for students stepping into their careers

• About the Guest

  Carol Sisson is a professor and director of the Orphaned and Vulnerable Children (OVC) Program at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana, where she has been teaching for over 15 years. With a background in educational psychology and special education, Carol combines academic rigor with a deep commitment to discipleship. Her passion is equipping students to live out God’s call to serve vulnerable populations with humility and compassion. Outside of the classroom, Carol draws inspiration from her upbringing, where her parents modeled a life of service through fostering, volunteering, and dignifying all people.

• Episode Transcript

  today we're joined by Dr. Carol Sisson, who serves as a professor and the director of the Orphaned and Vulnerable Children Program at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. Carol has been teaching at Taylor for over 15 years in both the education and psychology departments. And we've had the honor of speaking a couple of times in her class to her students. And, uh, we see that there's a lot of overlap in the themes that she teaches to her students and the work that One Collective is doing around the world globally. So we're so grateful that you've joined us today, Carol. Thank you.

  thank you. Good to be here.

  Carol, can you tell us a little bit about your background? I know that you've studied educational psychology. Can you tell us about, how you decided to study that and what your background in that area is?

  I was a Taylor graduate and was a psychology major with lots of other classes. I packed lots of things in thinking I'd, go different directions. But, I mainly studied that, but I wanted to work also with special education. So, um, but I did not think I could be a teacher. So, um, I had bad handwriting and I'm not artsy.

  So those were things I thought I had to have. To teach. Well, I've learned since that's not what it takes. Um, but for me, I thought, that's not a road for me. But I did love the idea of working in schools and with kids. And so I got my master's in educational specialist in school psychology.

  And then, probably about 10, 15 years later, I went back and got my doctorate in educational psychology and special education.

  So then what led you to the route of higher education? If you weren't sure that you were going to be a teacher from the beginning, how did you end up there?

  Definitely a God directed path also the path I would say of a, female a lot of times per, in professional world, you have different seasons of when you can do things. So I had quite a few years as a stay at home mom and homeschooled and things like that. So it was not ever a direct path, but, I think what put that idea in my mind was Even in college, I had a couple of people, one in student development, Dr.

  Tim Herman, and then one in psychology, Dr. Vance Maloney, who both, told me even when I was in college that they saw that in my future. They, Sometimes would even call me doctor or professor, like,

  okay.

  so they, they spoken into me. I worked for one of them and was a TA for another, but I don't just a reminder how we can speak a future into people and you don't quite know how it's going to land.

  But I just kind of had that idea, but then those years of homeschooling actually, and doing some work in a co op and Sunday school and things like that helped me realize I did enjoy teaching. Yeah. That probably were other things later. Yeah.

  Judging from my visit to your OVC class last week. I can, I am certain that there are a number of students who are glad that you have made this like career choice for you because, in that class, Carol, I gave a 5 minute introduction, opened the floor for a few questions, and they went for like 15 minutes asking a range of really good questions, and I think that it seems to me like you Been successful to some degree.

  I don't want to overstate it, but like you, you've created this environment where students want to learn and they're eager to ask questions. Is that how you see it?

  Yes. Thank you. I'm glad you saw that and they, they did. Perform well, that's good. I didn't even warn him either. So that's good. I really try to make the classroom a hospitable place. They have to learn about each other. They have named quizzes at the beginning. They have to learn each other's names and, learn to ask questions.

  We talk about a lot about intellectual humility and how we get critical thinkers. And, so I think there are certain things you can do to. All right. frame the class, and then hopefully they step into it, which they usually do.

  Yeah, I think I've experienced that in each of the three or four classes that I've been in of yours. There's a warmth, a receptivity or openness in them that I just find refreshing and I don't always see that everywhere I go. So that's really great. In a conversation with a student, I think, and I think a social work major last week at Taylor.

  She said, Social work is the heart of God. And I love that statement. But what I'm, where I'm going here is that I think like majors like OVC, orphans and vulnerable children, social work, maybe even psychology. They bring an emphasis on some really important personal dynamics, social family, structural dynamics that are.

  That really helps students understand people and relationships more than just in a conceptual way or theological way. And I don't know, your department is, it's different than missions or Christian ministry, all of all various good departments, but it seems like your focus on the love and care for people, especially the vulnerable is, Bye.

  Bye. Just really close to the heart of God.

  Yeah. I love that. I, we know the vulnerable are close to the heart of God, right? We read that in scripture. So. I do think there is a certain type of student or student with certain experience that is drawn to that and that are drawn to those classes, usually because they have interacted with someone vulnerable, or they have been vulnerable themselves.

  There's a part of me too, though, that I'm like, this is Christianity. It's not just a major. And so I want people to see this is all of our calling in some way. Not just particular majors. But it is fun. And that the particular classes, a lot of times we get students from all different majors.

  It counts as a foundational core course. So it is really fun to see. We have film majors in computer science and biology and, all different ones that are caring about this. So I think that's really a lovely space. Yeah.

  I don't know my ex. What I see is that there seem to be a lot of Christians who don't necessarily share this kind of like they might check. They might get that question right on a test, but in terms of their outlook on life and how they view people, whether it's people, refugees or immigrants or people in trafficking or whatever.

  Different demographics like that. It seems like there, it hasn't captured the hearts of many people. And so I'm, I'd love to hear, like, how you came to see this as something more prominent. For you, rather than simply, oh yeah, that's true.

  We should care about the poor or whatever. How did your, your evolution in this go, go, go?

  I would say it was modeled for me my whole life. My dad was a military chaplain, worked a lot. A lot of his focus was with, prisoners. And even just the way he spoke about them, was very dignifying. I don't ever remember. There were some interesting stories, but I never remember like him speaking as if they were less than, and my mom was a stay at home mom and piano teacher in the afternoon.

  And I called her a professional volunteer because she just was, volunteering as long as I can remember. And we were involved in it, so we would be involved. She. Would do a summer camp with kids with severe disabilities and they would come to the military base and we'd help with that and she would teach English to refugees and we'd come along and teach English to refugees and she, support adoptive families and yeah, so just, I think it was just so model to see people, That it became very normal to do that and to serve.

  I definitely appreciate that with them. And then they also became foster parents. So we saw that. So I was about eighth grade when they started taking foster kids and they had many over the years. So yeah, they invited us in as a family and I just saw that was a value to them.

  And I think it just became a value to me then.

  Yeah.

  reminder of the

  influence our parents have over us in our

  formative years and like me as a parent looking at my young children and the words that like my husband and I are Speaking to each other about people in our lives, that is internalized

  by our children. And so if we're speaking truth and life and hope and dignity, that's something that they'll carry forward.

  But if we're speaking negatively and critically of people, that can also be like something they carry, for the rest of their lives and their outlook on. Humanity.

  So it is so important how we, model like our language and the way we treat people, obviously

  in front of our children, but it's a good reminder.

  Another student that I met at Taylor last week, I was talking with him and he seemed so. Warm just as a person, but also we talked about what he might want to do with his life, his career and the demographics he may sense a calling to, and he just had such a warm, tender.

  heart toward people like refugees or people who are in other vulnerable situations. So I asked a little, kind of on the same vein here, I asked about his family and he said, Oh yeah, in our hometown, my family, they always cared about the refugees that were in their family. So naturally he's been breathing this kind of air, his whole life.

  And so it's natural that it just continues with him into his. adulthood and perhaps his career too. Yeah,

  we're very compartmentalized, especially in the United States, so you can, we would have other students who've lived their whole life and never met a refugee and never met a foster child. And, so you have that as well. And when they come to Taylor, they have a different journey, because then they engage and learn about it at that point.

  So it's never, it's not too late. And we have students so interested at that point as well. But, the more we can expose each other to. People of that are not like ourselves are in different situations. I think it's just such a gift to our kids, but also, just to our churches and Yeah, so

  Just a follow up question on that. So like I'm envisioning the class that I was in and I don't know, 25 students, whatever, would you have in a typical class of yours, that kind of mix of backgrounds?

  Yes now that one in particular Probably a little over half would have had exposure, like there are a lot of them, they had foster, their parents took foster kids or, or they've been adopted or their parents are in ministry things. And the other half has a, has some sort of reason.

  Each day someone does a different introduction and they share their why, like why they're in

  Oh, yeah.

  class and, or why they're, Heart is for the vulnerable and, often it's somebody, it's always somebody they met.

  So it could be a child at camp or someone in their church or a family member. So it is amazing how once we meet somebody, we recognize that we, first of all, we can relate and there we can learn from them and we have something to offer, but also it's not scary or it's not abstract.

  Yeah.

  Which is why things like mission trips still, I think, have a lot of value.

  They need to be done, they need to be done well, but they also, they create in you that, that compassion for people and people you pray for and see. Yeah.

  I don't know how much of my family or my story I've shared if you care, but we have five kids and our youngest five adult kids, our youngest is 27 and he is moderately autistic. And 25 years ago or so when we realized that he. Was going to have this delay or this situation, it began to open our eyes as to this whole group of people out in the world that have some kind of a challenge, whether it's emotional or, mental or physical.

  And of course those people have always existed. But once you have this personal. Contact and connection with someone from that group, it changes you and like now I'm not afraid to talk with someone with a disability because I talk with my son so I can talk freely and they're not people to be feared.

  They're people to be cared for and loved as we would anyone else.

  Yeah. I think suffering does the same thing, doesn't it? When you think of, when you go through a pain of some kind or I think of the, when my mom passed away and, she had a stroke and I just remember the doctors talking to it, not to bring us down, but the doctors gathering around telling me and my dad that she was not going to live.

  And in that moment, and I just thought I, I now it's like I was just flooded. I now know when just names came to my mind, what's all these people have gone through that I had no, I just knew they had gone through it, but I didn't know what it was like. And it's I now know what they went through. And like, it just gives, gave me such new eyes from

  Yeah. With this mandate and God's heart for people who are in vulnerable situations, what, what are some ideas on what this can look like for God's people today to just live out this. caring heart of God in our daily lives in our regular lives.

  I think being informed is one thing. I guess part of it and Is seen like who is in your circle? Who's close? And that's actually what got us into foster care is a lot of our ministry was here with Taylor students, the families at our church. It's a community with a lot of strong Christian families.

  And I think we were challenged, like, where are we stepping into poverty or where are we stepping into brokenness that we could all step into as a family? And, and even though we had done things way out there, and our kids had done some cool, mission experiences too. It's as here on a day to day basis, who am I interacting with?

  And so that's actually what got us into foster care. Cause we thought, okay, we know there are families and kids in our community that need someone. So I guess part of that answer would be then look around you and. And see, like I would study a lot with a racial reconciliation and things.

  But that's not a big, that's not a situation on a day to day, daily that we have around here. It's very monocultural and very monoracial around our area. So I would have to go. 30 miles away to interact and so that wasn't where God was putting me right there I can still pray for that and engage in that and learn about that But that's maybe not what is put in front of me what I need to do So I guess maybe just to look around what's in front of me that I can do without I don't want to say without disrupting my life if we disrupt our life too much.

  We're not gonna do it But what can I bring into my life? Um, and open my life up to that can help me step into some places like that.

  That's a great way to look at it because people aren't too eager to sign up for something that disrupts their life.

  But if it's something they can open their life up to and bring in, like you said, I think that's more inviting. It's

  still a challenge for all of us, but it's something that, yeah, that we could see ourselves moving into more so than if it was like to totally upend our life to do

  right. Let's all quit our jobs and move. Yeah.

  So I know that you care, obviously, about investing in your students deeply and shaping them for a life of serving the vulnerable, the oppressed, what are some things that you're doing to help shape that? And encourage, this kind of posture in your students. I know that, that we're trying to do the same thing, and invest in people in order to help shape them for a lifetime of service, just as you are.

  So I'm curious. Yeah. What are some ways that, you're able to do that?

  Some is by, well, spending time in the Bible. The first assignment we do in my class, and I did this when I taught an education class too, on diversity, diverse learners. But, just a biblical, it's just a study that I put together just on God's view of poverty and, the poor, his care for the poor, his care for the vulnerable.

  And what, who were the poor in scripture that. God talked about. So it's a interactive study where they look up verses and even things like practices put in place to prevent oppression of the poor.

  wow.

  So it. Gives it that framing at the beginning, which I think is helpful. Books we read, like in my cap, my capstone with my seniors is different from, my intro class, but like in capstone, we're reading, an unhurried life.

  So like, how do we have rhythms of ministry in a way that, is going to help us. long term be effective and be close to God and what we're wanting to do for God. How can we do it with God? But, so I think the books we read, I am a big proponent of experiential learning. Shaping, they do practical experiences, but also what can we do as groups or, To do things to prepare well and experience something.

  Debrief. Those things. And, so we can be exposed to different cultures and different situations. So the beautiful thing about Taylor is they get that in so many other places, it's not just mine. So they're getting that in the residence hall and in chapel and in their other courses.

  So it's really fun to know that I'm not trying to do it all,

  Yeah,

  yeah, because I would not do that well, but, so they're coming from so many different areas and yeah, it's fun to be a part of that and they have an eagerness. They come at least to tailor with the desire that this is what they want to do is be discipled.

  I don't know why this phrase is coming to my mind, but that's like right up your alley. That's like what you like to see and

  it is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. So I love the idea of teaching at this level because of the discipleship and the. I know I wouldn't do just the teaching somewhere else if it didn't have that component. I

  Yeah. I wanted to share, just take a minute and share briefly how one collective is doing this. So for example, an intern from. Taylor goes overseas or they do a short term experience, they will engage in some pre field online training. That's like the first piece that they get and there are there are aspects of that where they talk about an awareness of vulnerable people.

  They talk about prepare. How do you prepare to go to another culture? And then once they go, we put in their hands a handbook Which guides them through learning experiences regarding their spiritual life and serving. And again, more formation on the topic of serving and loving vulnerable people. And then when they're on the field, they are under the direct supervision of someone who has lived there for At least a few years, two or three years, sometimes many more years.

  And so they will be guided by someone who gets this stuff, not only conceptually, but lives it and who will pour into these short term workers, these interns from their life experience in that culture. And then for people who serve with us longer term, like long term, like career people.

  They come for two weeks of training to our home office. And in those two weeks of training, we have some really solid stuff. I think you would appreciate it. I,

  I know, I'd like to come,

  yeah. We go pretty, we talk really frankly about things like. What's on your, what's in your grief lineage?

  What's in your, your whole life story? What are the things there that need to be unpacked? We talk pretty, very openly about trauma. We talk about cultural, intercultural intelligence. And so that's not just me being able to have some intelligence in another country, it's me being able to have some intelligence as I relate to my spouse because she's from a different culture or the people in my workplace.

  So it's pretty great. And then we also have, I guess I'm pretty excited about all this.

  That's good, that sounds

  We also have this, what we call our equip courses, which is a whole range of courses that are taught by people within the organization. Topics range from, self awareness, doing discipleship in another culture, training on healing from trauma, and our community development, community transformation approach.

  People can go deep into each one of the segments of our approach. And this is, these are open for not only career people, but short terms as well. So if, Taylor students, they go somewhere next summer, for example, they can sign up for these courses and have those impact them as well.

  Oh, that's

  Yeah.

  That's great. Because that is the area of the experiential is I think so often we think, they'll learn it here and then they just go do it. But it's that's not how it works. We have to be learning and how are we doing? And I love that focus on how do we know ourselves and what we're bringing to this and,

  And where do we need healing and where we Where are we serving out of places of hurt, maybe, and not health.

  And yeah,

  And with some of these students, we go full circle and we invite them on a different podcast where we talk to them about their experience.

  Oh, there you go. That's

  It's really pretty great.

  Yeah. Those are the kind of practicums we want our students to have. Where we can pass them over and it's not just, okay, go to this place and work all summer. And then they, yeah, it's these kind of things. It's framed in a way that is. So educational for them and spiritually forming and culturally and just all those pieces.

  So thank you for doing those.

  That's what we aim for. And I think we do a pretty good job. We're not perfect, but we have some. Some of these important blocks, I think, in place, and we, they're really important to us and we are intentional about practicing them and implementing them with students and career people too.

  that's right. And then they bring that back and teach me and teach others too. And, so that's how we keep improving.

  I love that. We're collaborators

  yeah, that's right.

  in the next generation.

  Oh, for sure.

  something I read in a bio of yours, that. It that I really liked, was that the way that you, connect with students and what you're trying to do, your aim with students is to help them yearn for right relationships with God, others, themselves, and

  creation.

  And I love that because to me, that sounds like the word Shalom. Like the

  definition

  yeah. You betcha. You betcha. Yep.

  and that's like

  what we all should be aiming for,

  and to reach that, to be in harmony with creation and with each other and with God, it's really a product of God shaping us to be more like him because he of course embodies Shalom perfectly. Yeah, I'm curious as you look at the next generation and the future of, people that are going to be working in these fields with vulnerable people with orphans. Those who are in education or pursuing psychology at an advanced level. How do you see God shaping this generation?

  Or what are some observations of yours about this generation? What's encouraging about this generation to you?

  I know I'm skewed on my perception of this generation because I work with amazing students. And they're, I'm sure they're not all that way up there. But the ones I'm working with, what I am seeing is, an excitement. About their own walk with the Lord that I think is really cool. I see them discipling each other, and.

  I do feel like the Lord has given just, some encouragement to me at different times of. Saying, the, often think, what's going to happen to this generation and so many concerns about it. But I actually really think revivals coming and will come from this generation because they have had everything at least in the U S and a lot of places, they have had everything offered to them that is supposed to be wonderful.

  And they realize it's not, it's empty without the Lord. And so I think there's just a really. Beautiful hunger about them that, they know where things, what's worth living for and they're willing to give up some things. And, yeah, so I don't know. I'm excited about them. The students we have and Mark saw that they're eager, to learn and there's a humility in their learning.

  I think where we really can help is to help them. Understand what is truth and, that kindness also has truth in it. And we bring truth and healing. We're just not kind to people, but we bring the gospel, which sometimes is hard news, in some ways. And same with our own lives, like God working in us does not always look happy and great.

  It can come through a lot of hard things and, but our purpose is to be shaped to be like him. So yeah, just I don't know there. There's I'm excited about it And I think we're seeing it on a lot of different campuses

  With students. I just I feel like they are gonna be the ones leading others to the Lord.

  Amazing.

  I met probably with six or six or seven, eight students last week at Taylor. And I would have to say that this trait of humility and a jet also I use the word authenticity as well. There's something. There was something just really, I'll use the word, good about these students that I met with.

  And so, they give me hope.

  Any advice, Carol, for Christians that are going to head into the workplace soon?

  We're just talking about that with my seniors today at the finish your senior paper. That would be the 1st

  okay.

  Okay. Okay. Yeah.

  , I would say, don't be anxious. I think there's an anxiety that you have to the, your next decision has to be so major. Like, where am I going to live? Who am I going to. Work for and, so I was just telling a student today, actually, instead of fear, like just watch and that's been, that's been told to me so many times.

  But just watch how the Lord is going to lead and unfold and go into it with anticipation because he's so faithful to do that. So it would be one, because I think we will accept a job out of fear, or we, hone down our choices out of fear. And so, so keeping that open, knowing God wants our good, the good that will produce fruit in us.

  So maybe not what feels good, but the good

  Is fruit. Another thing I would say is, um, choose carefully who you go to work for. And also, um, I really believe in the, the holistic, help that we bring and One Collective is very good at, you bring the gospel and social justice like they're hand in hand.

  And so without the gospel, I just want them to be really aware of, you can do a lot of work in this space without the gospel, but. First of all, are you very strong in, do you have a strong network of Christians that you're in this? But also are you, using all God gave you if you can't use that part of the gospel?

  So, just be aware and be aware of the workplace. And, who are you working with? And is there joy? Is there thriving? Are there rhythms that keep everyone from burning out? Or is it like people come for a year and leave constantly?

  So as I guess, those would be some of the things, but. And your dream job doesn't always, I dunno, I think we, we move into dream jobs, right?

  exactly.

  Every job that's a dream job has a lot of, mundane, hard things about it. And it's, and so just being realistic that, with all the things you love to do, there are a lot of just gritty things you have to do as well.

  Yeah. I forget if I shared this in your, senior seminar class. I don't think I did, but I shared in one or two classes last week that, if you are walking. Somewhat close to your Lord. And so the, so there's a vitality there, a life there. And if God is a good father, we're not going to miss what he wants

  Right,

  he's, he's close to us.

  He's speaking to us. He will speak to us the way forward, just like he did with Jesus. And so I told a few classes, guys. And it's easy for me to say, of course, just relax. It's like what you said, don't worry, but just it's not the father has you and he's going to be kind to you.

  Now, if you're not really in a relationship with God where there is genuine trust and intimacy, that dynamic that I'm speaking here will be harder. But it's available, that

  Mhm. Yeah, even that image of walking with a child walking with a parent who walks just a little bit ahead and holds your hand, you know, and doesn't just push you.

  Carol, thank you so much. This has been really positive and fun, and I believe we have helped to some people as they hear part of your story and the things that you're passionate about and the kinds of, values that we've been discussing here today. And these topics that as people consider their lives and their 📍 careers.

  So thank you for being with us today.

• Links & References

  • Taylor University Orphaned and Vulnerable Children Program

  • An Unhurried Life: Following Jesus’ Rhythms of Work and Rest by Alan Fadling

  • One Collective: serving opportunities

More Episodes from One Collective

#7 Teaching with Compassion - Becky Doane

Episode 7 | 37 Minutes | Jan 14, 2025

Ever been in a situation where you felt like the odds were stacked against you? Whether you’re figuring out your future, facing personal struggles, or navigating complicated relationships, it can be hard to see a way through.

#7 Teaching with Compassion

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode, Becky Doane, social work professor and program director at Cornerstone University, shares how the strengths perspective—a mindset shift that focuses on what’s already working—can help you find a way forward. Becky offers practical advice for applying this perspective to real-life situations, from tough family dynamics to choosing a career path. Whether you’re a student or young professional, you’ll walk away with fresh tools and renewed hope for tackling life’s challenges.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Becky’s journey from fieldwork to teaching social work
  How the strengths perspective empowers individuals and communities

• Practical steps to identify and apply personal strengths

• The importance of empathy and understanding in conflict resolution

• Navigating challenging family dynamics with healthy boundaries

• Preparing social work students for real-world situations

• About the Guest

  Becky Doane is a professor and the social work program director at Cornerstone University in Grand Rapids, Michigan. With years of experience in foster care, child welfare, and clinical mental health practice as a DBT clinician, Becky transitioned into teaching during the pandemic. Passionate about preparing future social workers, Becky is known for her compassionate teaching style and her commitment to equipping students with the tools to serve their communities effectively. She holds a Bachelor’s in Social Work from Grace College and an MSW from Grand Valley State University.

• Episode Transcript

  📍 Today we have a special guest joining us, a real friend of One Collectives.

  Uh, we're joined by Dr. Mike Sevier. Mike is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. He directs the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. Mike has served as a pastor, has written numerous articles and books, and has a forthcoming book that we'll talk about today. He is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders in the church. And he has a very special interest in reaching people with disabilities. Mike, you have brought numerous Taylor students to One Collective's headquarters for their senior capstone project. And we've also had the privilege of presenting in classes of yours at Taylor.

  So we're pretty excited to have you here and thank you for making the time to chat with us today.

  So glad to be here, Carly and Mark. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we've been enjoying the partnership between, uh, Taylor and One Collective for many years.

  really great to have you here, Mike. would love if you could tell us a little bit about your early years, because I think they were quite influential in shaping kind of some of the things that are important to you today. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah,

  at risk, urban people on the margins for as long as I can remember. And I think that really does come from my childhood. My father, abandoned our family, in a way when he was thrown in federal prison as a, he stole a plane and, crossed state boundaries, which is very illegal and ended up, then escaping prison and came and Looked for us.

  And so there was periods of my childhood where I realized what it was like to hide or run or to be in those sort of situations. And that gave me a heart for those who maybe weren't safe. Those who were on the margins. Those didn't have access to resources. I was raised for a period of time by single mother, but then my mom remarried later on in my late elementary age and That man adopted me, and so adoption became part of my story, and that man I now call my father, when I married, my wife and I said, we want to do foster care and care for kids, who, don't have homes and, uh, will never maybe find a permanent family.

  Maybe we could do that. And so, alongside my work in urban youth ministry and so forth as a youth pastor we were starting to do foster care and care for Children in our own home. And so it was this ministry in the home and ministry in the church to different groups, but all very much on the outskirts of maybe typical ministry or sort of the what we would see is the norm.

  Was there like a moment where something clicked for you and this focus, this passion that you have today for reaching people, youth on the margins, disabled people? Was there a moment where that kind of I need to do something about this. Was there a moment like that or how did that develop?

  Yeah, there's a couple of moments, certainly a progression of moments, where I was called into ministry and, and had, my eyes awakened to different kinds of needs. I've done a lot of work with foster care, abused children, urban kids. And I remember one girl who was telling me about an injury and I asked her about it.

  She was a middle school girl in my downtown Portland, church. And, And, the way she described her injury and how it happened seemed impossible to me, and she was very vague and elusive about it. And then I started wondering what was really going on. And at the same time, I had another, young man, we'll call him Brody, and he would come and help set up for youth group.

  And, he said he had left his route to come help me that day. And I was probably thinking paper route at that moment, but as our relationship developed and he attended youth group and helped me set up chairs and games and food. I realized that he was not a paper boy, he was delivering other things.

  And what I realized that a simple donut and picking a kid up and bring him to sunday school. Changed his world in ways that he would describe to me as amazing. He had never had that kind of attention from an adult. And, here's a kid who has more money than me literally as an urban youth pastor, cause he's dealing and, and, but simply buying him a donut and driving him somewhere and spending time with him was transformational. And so just having my eyes open to the great needs. And what little things, just simply asking the right questions or being willing to spend time or buy a donut, and care can bring people, that normally have no interaction with the church, back in, into the connection with the church and then Christ, of course.

  Those

  people probably don't have many adults who are pouring into them just simply, because of who they are and to know them better and to love them. So I think that obviously would stand out as something different.

  Yeah.

  And of course, as you do foster care or work with at risk populations, there's a higher incident of mental health and medical trauma. Foster care, is more common in some demographics than others and so forth. So that also made me aware. And my second youth ministry, I had, middle school group that was about 25 teenagers in two grades, seventh and eighth.

  And I had three autistic Children in that group, a varying abilities. But that population, that number was not statistically significant, right? It was beyond statistically significant. And so I asked, what, what's going on? Is there something in the water here? And what I realized is that we'd become a place where children like that could engage that they could get to physically or emotionally and join the group.

  And, and so They started coming and, and it was just simply, if you build it, it will come type of, they will come and, and they showed up because we had, a welcoming environment environment that could take care of them, that we knew their struggles and, and suddenly we saw many children, from, families that were at risk or had disabilities showing up to my youth group, because we were just simply taking small, very minor steps to, uh, make it possible for them to participate.

  What was the pathway to you becoming a professor, as, I know you started out in hands on ministry in the church, so how did that, how did that evolve into where you are now?

  Yeah, that's a great question, Carly. I think, I've always been, interested in ideas, and asking questions. And I have a natural curiosity there. And, and I liked impressing adults. So that was maybe a strength and a weakness, right? Two sides of a coin, dark side. And I was always, I'm trying to impress the adults and those adults were often teachers.

  So that, that's just something, like getting approval from adults. We'll get good grades, okay. So. So there's that to professors often had good grades, in school. So it doesn't, not surprisingly. However, I think also, as I was early on in my schooling, I was young twenties, very young twenties.

  I was a brand new youth pastor. I was hanging out with a variety of other youth pastors from, age 20 to 50 in Portland, urban Portland. And we were networking. And, what I realized is that I was getting content, ideas, information, books, resources, people, networking opportunities, all those kinds of things that, everyone in my network didn't necessarily have access to.

  Most of the people in my network were far more experienced. had maybe larger churches, more resources, and so forth, but would often start turning to me because, they didn't have the connection to certain types of ideas, certain types of people, certain types of books, and I could say, oh, I could refer something to you, or you need to talk to this person, which is what a network is supposed to do, right?

  But, I started gaining an, a passion for then, how do we resource youth pastors to get the things they need in their hands so that they can be more effective in these areas of ministry, where maybe they haven't been able to take classes or have mentors and, they've had to figure out, reinvent the wheel, et cetera, inside, doing it, they're trying to figure it out 20 minutes before the horde of middle schoolers show up for, a youth group, right?

  Which is not the best time to figure things out by the way. So at that point, I started taking, notes, in my classes as I was studying ministry, theology, Bible, discipleship, evangelism, and not just for my own ministry, but actually what would I, what am I noting about the way the professor shares how they communicate and train me?

  And so I would note their techniques, the, the teaching you. Tips that they were doing and giving to me by modeling them, as well as the content and information that I needed for my own ministry. And then, yeah, it just progressed. So I just stayed in school for a decade, or so, and, and I kept doing full time youth ministry while, doing school part time and sometimes full time.

  And, and eventually started taking on adjunct classes. And then, there was periods where I was teaching what I was doing. Taking classes on about what I was doing while also doing it full time. So I don't necessarily recommend all that at once. But, I think there's a synergy, of course, in what we call the praxis, theory and practice put together the theory informs the practice.

  And then I go back and say, Hey, it didn't work like you said it did. I tried it, and, and then likewise, when I'm doing something, I can say, Oh, how does the theory inform this better? How does my learning about this help me understand the theory better? And there's that cycle of going deeper and deeper into it.

  And, and I think that's super important and helpful when, studying and practicing, we can't divorce the two, we can't separate them out. We have to put them together. So that's always been my passion. So I've always wanted to resource people in the church to mobilize them to reach teenagers and of course, the whole culture.

  And how do we equip and mobilize others? Has been my sort of question and passion. And so now I see a need now, especially in the area of foster care, trauma, disability, and especially in youth ministry in the local church and so forth. And so we're trying to lean into that because I think the church is ready to hear this and there is a great need.

  And, I want to equip the church with resources where they can, follow God's heart in this area.

  Yeah. You've, you've got a book coming out, um, soon, I believe, and the working title is Youth Ministry on the Margins. Who is on the margins? Mike, I think you've been talking about it here a little bit. Tell us who's on the margins as you survey the landscape of demographics, and you're aware of people out there.

  Who is that for you?

  Yeah, that's an important question, Mark. And of course, the margins, the lines, evolve based on who's making them, what theology they have. We tend to draw lines all the time. We tend to make lists all the time. And, one of the things I love about Jesus's teaching, especially, especially the, The, the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep and the lost brother, where he's basically saying, we need to get rid of our lists here of who is in and who is out.

  And, and we need to be going after all of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost brothers and because that aligns with the heart of God. Now, of course, we can't go after everything, every moment, right? So for this, for this purpose in this book, Youth Ministry on the Margins, we're focusing on sort of three specific things that I've found in both my personal experience with foster care and youth ministry.

  And of course, in the research that pretty typically overlap. And so disability, is one of those things, in an area where the church is, I think, again, as I said, becoming really aware of the need. And, and yeah. People with disabilities, whether physical or mental health disabilities, constitute in each of those groups about 20 percent of the population. So we can just say basically, and sometimes they have both mental and physical disability. And so if we just simply look at that number alone, 20 percent for either one of those groups, that's 20 percent of those people who are actually not getting to church. We know very clearly that people with physical or mental health issues do not engage the church and actually no one in their family engages the church as well.

  So think of 20 percent of the population and everyone in their immediate circle never going to church because they for various reasons. physical or health reasons, can't, and then when you look at, groups like foster care and so forth, often they have neglect or abuse, which can create traumas.

  They can create mental disabilities. They can get physical disabilities through the abuse. And sometimes those are temporary, and sometimes not. But, often kids at risk and those types of foster care environments move into the margins, away from the normal resources, and, and relationships that children need to thrive.

  And, of course, it also removes them from access to the church, for various reasons, like if they're in a wheelchair and they can't get into the youth room, they can't go to youth groups. Those kinds of things. And we need to be thinking about those who, just broadly defining margins, those who are on the margins of society, those who don't have access, those we are not paying attention to.

  And those that those are people that God deeply cares for and favors. He talks about orphans and widows, right? And and that's not. Everyone in that group, but it's a, a scriptural device called an inclusio, right? Which is the bookends, the A to Z, it's orphans and widows and everyone in between who we have ignored or shuffled off to the side or rejected in some way.

  God is very clear that he does not reject them. And, and we need to be welcoming and going to, and bringing those people, not just to serve them, but to be part of the church. Otherwise the church is impoverished. We don't have the gifts that they, are given by the spirit. They're not, leading with us.

  We don't have those perspectives and understandings that they would bring and enrich the church with. And so we're all impoverished by that. If we ignore the margins and stay in our comfortable status quo, et

  You mentioned, 20 percent of the population that feels pretty vast. I'm recalling a quote from the book, The Body Keeps the Score, book on trauma. And it says that for every returning war vet with severe PTSD, there are 10 children for whom their home is a war zone.

  Think of a statement like that, and I think of your 20%, it feels overwhelming. Is there something to that, to, to what I'm saying here, that it is really a massive problem?

  yeah, I phrase it like this. We normally talk about the, the 10 40 window being the unreached people groups of the world. If my stats are right, and, and I do believe they are, and they are worldwide. That means that there's 20 percent of the population of the planet that has a diagnosable disability or mental illness.

  And that we also know, at a very high degree, 90 plus percent, they don't engage with the church in any way. If that's true, they are the largest unreached people group on the planet, period. So when we begin to note that, then we can start to say what changes in our theology need to happen. What changes in our practice and strategy, or maybe even just simple things in our buildings, like wheelchair ramps and becoming ADA compliant and so forth. Maybe we train our youth staff and children's ministry staff on trauma.

  So it's not just a kid that has behavior issues, but how do we understand what's underlying those behaviors? And the behaviors are very real and often very difficult. But if we can understand the trauma or the disability, then often we can, work in much more effective ways to support the child.

  And, bring them into the community, support the family so that they can also be part of the community, even, and think of their siblings that are also outside of the church because of great needs of maybe another sibling, right? So that often happens when you have a child that has a, a disability or a mental illness or something along those lines.

  The siblings, who may be neurotypical, as we might call it, more in the middle of our expectations, if that's true. Right or not. They, they often are called glass children because they are ignored by the system. All the resources and time and effort are being poured into siblings, who have, a difficult need.

  The other siblings are often left out and they don't have access to, often educational support structures, tutoring, sports, and of course the church. They're, they're simply part of a system that's all turned inward on the great need of a person in their side, their family. And, and the family is often suffering and trying to do that all alone.

  And the church, is, has been broadly unaware of those

  Yeah. That makes me wonder, how aware is the church of these needs, both, here in America and globally, and how is the church becoming aware of these needs?

  Yeah, that's a great question. I can't give a definitive answer on that, of course, but what I can tell you, I'm very encouraged by a number of theologians who are writing very specifically on this area about disability and leadership in the church and spiritual gifts in the church about how, how we have, maybe not read carefully the Old Testament about, examples of, and the way God interacts with this specific group of people and cares for the margins and how to bring them in.

  And so I think as we do theological work, it will change, the way we do and practice ministry and strategy and so forth for, for discipleship and evangelism. Just, for example, we often think something like the Imago Dei is when I reflect God properly, or when I look like Jesus, then I'm properly being in the image of God.

  But if we take that stance, there's some problems there that when I'm, Not reflecting God, by my standards or my definition from external, not from God's definition, but from like our social definitions, we often then say, if this person's not producing or proper in some way, then, then they're not in the image or fully in the image.

  And we can begin to dehumanize people or cast them off to the side. And I think that's the real, the real problem with the margin. It's not just that we didn't notice them. And oh, now we need to do something about it. It's actually really at Beth, at base, a theological issue where we have drawn lines that don't include everyone.

  And, until we redraw those lines with, God's definitions in mind, we're imposing. These false boundaries and placing people on the margins of society and therefore out of the church and out of access to All of the community that is so needed to be healthy And so I think that's a theological turn that's beginning to happen lots of writing and thinking happening about that And of course, we're also seeing a movement in In children's ministry, especially about practical issues of, of being sensitive to sensitivity issues, like for children who have autism and maybe certain fans or lights or colors or textures are not helpful.

  And we know this, maybe, we need sensory rooms. And a lot of churches are turning to the education world and maybe even hiring, those who specialize, in, neurodiversity in an educational setting like a public school and bringing them in as consultants or even as children's pastors in the church.

  Of course, the typical church or the typical mission or parachurch ministry can't hire maybe somebody who is a special education director for their church. Maybe they don't even have a children's pastor, let alone someone specializing in that area. So we probably just need to become also very practical about how we train and equip and think about this.

  And that's one thing, our work is trying to do, how do we think about our theology and also, we don't need a million dollar budget to rethink our strategy to reach people on the margins. But there are some things we probably need to change. Like maybe handrails, things like that.

  And isn't there, yes there is, like a sociological, Emotional Intelligence, component to this, some people tend to be Even in many churches, they tend to be judgmental, or they have strong opinions about, oh, look at this child, how are they behaving, what's wrong with them, rather than moving toward becoming more curious as people, instead of asking, what's wrong, what's wrong with them, asking maybe, what happened to him, or what's going on in this person that I can understand better, a shift in, What we are like as people from being a little more, a little less judgmental or critical and more, Hey, I'm really curious about that.

  And then adding to that compassion, when you have curiosity and compassion, it's a powerful mix. I think Yeah.

  was two children. We were in Appalachia, and it was a very difficult neighborhood, a three county area, actually. And, Georgia, in the legislator had passed a rule, that, any, caseworker that wasn't visiting their children on a monthly basis could be legally liable or criminally prosecutable.

  And and of course it's good for social workers to see their children at least every 30 days. The problem was the system was so over full and overloaded and there weren't enough social workers to see the children that they currently had in the system. They just stopped pulling children from homes. And then they tried to find other ways to deal with the situations in the home, without making themselves criminally negligent in their jobs. . We moved in, did the training, waited and then we were placed with some children. What I didn't know at the time was that it was the only children that had been removed in a three county area in about five months.

  And it was such a disastrous and difficult and, abuse, laden case, that they would only show up with two police officers at the home to visit the family because they were, physically at threat. They moved the children out of the county. We never met or saw the parents, we would have to, take different routes home to go drop them off at the center where they would do visits, and then they would move the kids to it.

  That kind of stuff like we're playing cat and mouse to protect the children, but we brought, we brought these kids home and, The girl was five and she was wearing shorts and a tank top and had one flip flop. That was it. That's all we had. And we found out that the shorts were actually two t pants made for an 18 month old.

  And no underwear, no nothing. And the two year old boy, her younger brother, couldn't walk or talk. And we went to Walmart, bought him some stuff and found out that she would grab things and try to eat them, tear them apart with her teeth. She would chew up her bedding on a nightly basis, had never slept in a bed and so forth.

  And, we entered, quite literally a very difficult time. That was the worst in our lives. I slept in, I slept at the foot of her doorway, for about, Three weeks. She offered herself to me sexually, for example. So we're trying to carefully navigate this really difficult situation.

  And, and it was beyond our capability. We went to church, locally and we were relatively new to the community and we called the church and we say, we have this situation. I don't think you guys can handle this. And they said, let's look into it. And they said, no, you need to come. And so a couple of weeks into the placement, we show up at church and a lady met us.

  She was, in her mid forties. She says, I've been a special education teacher and consultant for 15 years. And she took, our little foster girls, five year old hand and looked us in the eyes and said, everything will be all right. Meet me back here in two hours. And, and she became a buddy for our little girl and walked off with her and we went and cried for an entire hour because we were just so relieved.

  And then we went to church and sat in church and were able to engage with other adults for the first time in many weeks. , and we're just so thankful that the church had stepped up. Okay, so that's the good part of the story. The bad part of the story is, the children's, got out and we went and picked her up and, we had other kids with us as well, some we adopted and they were doing little laps around the pews in the church while some other people from our new small group were buying pizza and they were going to take us and our kids, foster kids to the park and we were going to play and everybody was going to watch this one little girl to make sure she was safe and, and all those types of things.

  But they were doing little laps like a racetrack around the pew. And my wife and I were standing at one end corralling them while the pizza was being bought. The lights are turning off and all this kind of stuff. And the pastor came up to us. And he said, Hey, get those kids out of here.

  This is the sanctuary of the Lord.

  Yeah.

  And,

  Yeah.

  maybe that wasn't the best place to play with the children, but we were a little bit at wit's end and we didn't know what to do. And I think, at, in evidence, there are two very different theologies. One is, let me take your hand. We will come alongside you and provide, and provide community and resource, for this, very difficult situation.

  And this very difficult child, she was very difficult. And then on the other side, where the room became more important than a foster child who had never been to church in her life, and was there for the first time and we were asked to leave because, they were giggling. And I think that just exemplifies we need to change in theology and we also need to be places that can step up.

  It doesn't, that church did not have a sensory room or paid staff, but they were able to accommodate us and allow us to actually go to church as foster parents. And I think if we can become places like that and move away from a theology that sort of. Lands on, the secondary or tertiary issues and focuses on the IMAGO day in all people, then we're going to be at a much better place of able to minister to people and allow them to minister to us too.

  Even shifting from a concept of God being remote and harsh and austere and, All of the appropriate detailed behavior is what's most important or you get slapped versus a tender loving father and Jesus who is there and welcomes the children.

  Even if the pastor had, gone down on his knee, asked the kids their names, met them and then said, Hey, let me take you to the place where they can run. That, that would have been a whole different approach than, something coming from a, this, really strong theological bent towards buildings over people.

  Mike, what kind of resources are you developing, for church leaders and mission leaders, on this journey that you're on that would help us provide more accessible spaces, that are inclusive of disabled populations of those struggling with mental health and their families?

  There's a lot of good organizations, doing work in these spaces. Youth for Christ has a work in this area. Johnny and friends has been doing this for decades. There are some manuals and, practical stuff we can learn from schools, thinking about sensory room and specialized training for teachers, integrated, and we have to think through our philosophy.

  Are we going to do the buddy system like the woman who came and took our little girl and? Spent time with her and in a group and walked with her through the Sunday school program. Are we going to talk about separate spaces for, people with certain kinds of disabilities or integrate them into the entire program?

  So we have to think through our philosophy. I also think we need to just step back and ask the right questions. I have a friend who's working on the book with me, Laura Widstrom from Olivet Nazarene. She teaches youth ministry there as well, like I do here at Taylor. We're working on this project and she talks about calling ahead to churches when she moves or changes communities.

  And, often she doesn't get calls back. She's I have a autistic son. He's adopted from the foster system. We have these issues and they're like, okay, we'll talk to the children's pastor and they never reply. And she's okay. So that's sort of a indication that they don't know what to do with this.

  Or, they, they can't answer my questions and just don't. But I think it's important to, as ministers to look at your ministry space, starting with the phone. How are we able to respond to families like mine who call and say, I have this foster children with some profound disabilities. How can you help me?

  We need to know how to answer that question and how to get them to the right people and so forth. We need to think about our website and what information could be on there. I don't think we need to have entire pages for specific ministries for children with exceptionalities or disabilities. But parents are looking to see if they can get into the building.

  Where's the parking, how's the lighting, how's the sensory stuff, and then to maybe actually walk through our buildings and our ministries and see, could a teenager who's in a wheelchair actually get to the youth room or the Sunday school class? And I hear all the time, this comment, when I'm having discussions with youth pastors and I have, I've been there myself.

  I don't have anybody with a disability in my youth group. Again, I think if you build it, they will come when we start providing access. I think people will engage with that because it's so desperately needed. And, and when we find ways to make spaces welcoming for different groups. And maybe finding buddies for to walk through specific needs, those kinds of things.

  I think we'll find people coming out of the woodwork to engage our ministries. But until we actually walk through our spaces, our bathrooms, the signage, tactile sensory lights type of stuff, and just getting some basic awareness of how this affects, whether it's a child with autism or a kid who's just gone through a traumatic experience, we need to become aware.

  And I think that's just, a helpful sort of walk through type of approach. Yeah, and then to have policies and, practices. People who are trained, how we thought through, okay, when somebody shows up, how do we work with a parent? To make sure that they're at the right types of experiences.

  And, for example, a child, I had three kids with autism in my youth group at one point in a group of 25, they didn't participate in every game. Some of them were not appropriate for them. They didn't go to every single message. Some of them weren't developmentally appropriate for their spot.

  And so I communicated with and worked with the parents and that child's buddy to make sure that it was, coordinated, so that we're actually working with the parents and the families for the interest of the child's best needs because the parents know better than anybody what the child actually needs.

  And if we're not incorporating them into our ministry, then we're probably missing the boat. A lot of times, you know, we just want parents to drop off their kids and then we do ministry at them

  Yeah,

  instead of with the child and with the family and incorporate the family's needs and understandings for their own child for the best possible

  effect.

  it's a challenging hill we're climbing. We have brought our son to church on a few occasions and even if, and when he is able to, experience. And be in a setting that might not be tailored to him, but is not opposed to him either.

  There are still like his own social and anxiety issues that make it even more difficult, I think, for this, for many in this population.

  And the whole church has to be on board. If you bring in children with sensory issues, they may react to the color of the chair. Are we willing to bring in a different color chair for that child to sit in? And I've been in places that would not allow such things.

  And other churches that would have changed every single chair in the room to make it work, um. Yeah, Mark, I think that's absolutely true that we need to be, sensitive. We need to be aware. We need to be asking questions. We need to be seeing it through their, their eyes and, and we need to be willing to be uncomfortable.

  If we invite somebody with Tourette's into the worship service, or if they have unsort of controlled, motions, they will disrupt our, status quo, our peaceful service, if you will. And, and we need to be willing to do that if we want to include them in the full life of the body.

  Yeah, when we took our son to church once during a quiet moment in worship or the sermon or something, he just speaks out loud something like, Mom, I'm bored. I want to go home. There, there are those dynamics that will be at play.

  That happens all the time in youth group normally,

  but yeah, in the church service, that's a little different. Yeah.

  And children are already disruptive, just by nature. So I think if we want to be inclusive of, the whole body, we need to start getting used to those disruptions, whether they be from a baby or, somebody who might be struggling in the moment or, whoever it is, I think, we need to be more understanding of that.

  Hmm. As we were preparing for this call, Mike, Carly and I were saying how we just, we love this conversation because one collective has our missions, our mission is that we bring people together to help the oppressed. People on the margins is the focus of our work around the world.

  And even intentionally. We have a few locations that are working directly with people with disabilities and mental disabilities, physical disabilities, and our, our leaders, more and more, they are exploring ways that they can engage this part of the population.

  And of course, disability isn't the only margin, but I think it's a margin that we're beginning to be aware of. And, and the resources I think will be able to transform our, ability to, Welcome and make them a part of, and then let them bless us. And it's not a matter of doing ministry to, but doing ministry with, and I think that's another perspective change, that everyone in the family, I've got everyone in the church has a gift, a spiritual gift given by the spirit.

  And, that includes people with exceptionalities and disabilities that includes all ages, right? It includes those on the margins or those in the center. However we want to make, those boundaries, we all have gifts. And, uh, when someone is not allowed to give their gift to the church. Church. We understand that creates disunity and immaturity and division.

  We've got a problem if we're not welcoming the gifts, across all peoples that, are part of the body.

  What would you, uh, say to students as they're contemplating their future and they may be wrestling with, this, they may be, just becoming aware of this need in the world and considering whether to make it a part of their future. Yeah. What advice would you give to students?

  Yeah, I love working with young adults, teenagers. That's been my whole life. My, my majority of work right now is, late teens, young adults, training them for ministry and it's so fun to help them find, not just their gifts, and interests, but a passion. And I really, Tell them when you start to feel something for a group of people, or even a location or a need, that's really your heart aligning with God's heart.

  God's already there. God's already at work. Firmly believe that, in a number, theologically speaking, God's already there at work. And, and he's probably drawing you into that. I also want to warn them that you can't, fulfill every need and, address every margin all at once.

  And Yeah, and so grow into that passion. It's okay to have a focus. We need different kinds of people and different kinds of ministries to meet the different needs. And I think as a body, as we respond to God's heart for all of these groups and all of these needs, then we all together do the work of God and make the kingdom more evident.

  Here on earth. So yeah, I would tell them to lean into it to find the thing that resonates with them, to not worry about the things that they can't do or can't solve right now, but to lean in on that one thing. And so it's, it's really not a matter of just finding a good thing to do, because there's always good things to do.

  In fact, there's always great things in the kingdom, but the real thing is to find the thing that you were created for. And, uh, what, what is the one thing, that God is asking of you? And if we settle for good or even great things, we'll probably burn out and we might miss, great joy in our lives and ministry. Because I've had 40 foster children come through my home on temporary basis and like 15 long term people often ask me, you know why I've done that or what's it like and often young people will say I want to do that. I want to warn everyone. I've worked in urban environments, I've dealt with, violence and drugs and, criminality.

  I've had police snipers in my junior high room shooting out of the windows, those kinds of environments, really interesting stories. But it was, but that's nothing compared to when I brought it into my home. And I think it's one thing when we hold off at arm's distance, ministry, and we can create a program.

  Or keep it within certain timeframes or boundaries. I don't think hospitality allows us to do that. Biblical hospitality really requires us to offer not just tea and crumpets between five and seven at my predetermined location, but to actually Invite someone into my life to the point where, I sacrifice for them.

  And then they also have rights and responsibilities back to me. That's just sort of oriental hospitality, right? And that's what Christ offers for us. As a host would, that he sacrifices his life in place of his guests. That is the story of redemption and salvation, right?

  That Christ's hospitality was incredibly costly, cost him his life, but in place of ours. And when we enter into these types of spaces, it's one thing to let a teenager who's lost and ran away from their parents, sleep on your floor while the police are coming or something like that, because you found them.

  It's a very different thing to invite it into a lifestyle and to move into the neighborhood. But I think those are the places where the light shines the brightest and it's also, deeply difficult. And I don't think everybody needs to, necessarily do foster care or, work, in disability ministry directly.

  But if we don't support one another in these things, if we're not praying for, I've had times when foster placement happened or, we had a child with a disability. People didn't mow my lawn or bring me a lasagna. Like it wasn't going to happen. Right. So there's ways to support one another in this without, having to, necessarily, do it all ourselves.

  And, and again, it's a body effort, right? If everyone in my local church was doing foster care, my local church would not exist. I, I mean that literally, like we wouldn't survive. But, when some of us do foster care and everyone participates in it, it becomes doable, right? I think that's the way we need to think about ministry to youth on the margins.

  If we are simply trying to make a program

  Yeah

  do it all ourselves, it won't work for various reasons. But when we come together as a body and create an environment, a community, a culture, and be the church, then we can bring people into that. And it won't, it won't, it'll tear us apart in certain ways, but in all the right ways.

  I love your insertion of the topic of hospitality Mike it reminds me of henry nowens. He has a number of statements on hospitality and one of them is Hospitality is not an atmosphere we provide where we are trying to change people. It's providing an atmosphere where change can take place. And, it, and it will be messy.

  Change is hard and especially perhaps with people with unique struggles, the change could be, expressed in ways that are harder for us. And so I, I, I love. The messiness of hospitality, if you will, but the deep value of it because so much life can take place there.

  It's beautiful when we live out being the church and, and understand our calling and, and God continues to grow us in those ways. But again, we've got to be willing to be uncomfortable, right? It's not, hospitality is not on my terms with my boundaries in my spaces. It's really a self sacrificial activity where we offer ourselves, you know,

  We totally agree and we can definitely see the investment that you're making in this next generation of leaders. It is significant. So that's very evident. Just in our several years long relationship with you.

  So

  Yeah, thank you.

  Your bio, Mike says that you are committed to providing love, care, opportunities, and safety to the most vulnerable among us. And I just want to say that I see that and we value that. And, may the Lord 📍 bless you as you continue in that trajectory.

• Links & References

  Learn more about Becky’s Work

More Episodes from One Collective

#6 Creating Inclusive Communities: Disability, Foster Care, and the Church - Dr. Mike Severe

Episode 6 | 40 Minutes | Jan 7, 2025

Are you wondering how to create a welcoming and inclusive environment in your workplace or community? The challenge of loving and serving people from all walks of life—especially those often overlooked—can feel overwhelming, whether you’re just starting out in your career or stepping into a new leadership role.

6: Creating Inclusive Communities: Disability, Foster Care, and the Church

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of the Innovate for Good Podcast, Dr. Mike Severe shares his powerful story of ministering to people on the margins, including youth in foster care and those with disabilities. He unpacks practical ways to foster inclusion, compassion, and love, even when resources feel limited or you’re unsure where to start. If you’re ready to lead with a mindset of transformation and hospitality, this episode will inspire and equip you.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• How to build inclusive environments in your workplace or ministry.

• Practical ways to love and serve people with disabilities.

• Why small acts of kindness can have a big impact on marginalized communities.

• How trauma awareness can help you connect with those in need.

• The importance of seeing the Imago Dei (Image of God) in everyone you meet.

• Lessons on creating spaces of belonging for foster children and their families.

• How biblical hospitality can shape your approach to leadership.

• About the Guest

  Dr. Mike Severe is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana, where he directs both the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. A former pastor and lifelong advocate, Mike is committed to equipping the next generation of leaders to embrace inclusive and compassionate practices in their careers. His work focuses on supporting youth in foster care, people with disabilities, and others on the margins, challenging leaders to reflect God’s heart in every environment.

• Episode Transcript

  📍 Today we have a special guest joining us, a real friend of One Collectives.

  Uh, we're joined by Dr. Mike Sevier. Mike is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. He directs the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. Mike has served as a pastor, has written numerous articles and books, and has a forthcoming book that we'll talk about today. He is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders in the church. And he has a very special interest in reaching people with disabilities. Mike, you have brought numerous Taylor students to One Collective's headquarters for their senior capstone project. And we've also had the privilege of presenting in classes of yours at Taylor.

  So we're pretty excited to have you here and thank you for making the time to chat with us today.

  So glad to be here, Carly and Mark. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we've been enjoying the partnership between, uh, Taylor and One Collective for many years.

  really great to have you here, Mike. would love if you could tell us a little bit about your early years, because I think they were quite influential in shaping kind of some of the things that are important to you today. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah,

  at risk, urban people on the margins for as long as I can remember. And I think that really does come from my childhood. My father, abandoned our family, in a way when he was thrown in federal prison as a, he stole a plane and, crossed state boundaries, which is very illegal and ended up, then escaping prison and came and Looked for us.

  And so there was periods of my childhood where I realized what it was like to hide or run or to be in those sort of situations. And that gave me a heart for those who maybe weren't safe. Those who were on the margins. Those didn't have access to resources. I was raised for a period of time by single mother, but then my mom remarried later on in my late elementary age and That man adopted me, and so adoption became part of my story, and that man I now call my father, when I married, my wife and I said, we want to do foster care and care for kids, who, don't have homes and, uh, will never maybe find a permanent family.

  Maybe we could do that. And so, alongside my work in urban youth ministry and so forth as a youth pastor we were starting to do foster care and care for Children in our own home. And so it was this ministry in the home and ministry in the church to different groups, but all very much on the outskirts of maybe typical ministry or sort of the what we would see is the norm.

  Was there like a moment where something clicked for you and this focus, this passion that you have today for reaching people, youth on the margins, disabled people? Was there a moment where that kind of I need to do something about this. Was there a moment like that or how did that develop?

  Yeah, there's a couple of moments, certainly a progression of moments, where I was called into ministry and, and had, my eyes awakened to different kinds of needs. I've done a lot of work with foster care, abused children, urban kids. And I remember one girl who was telling me about an injury and I asked her about it.

  She was a middle school girl in my downtown Portland, church. And, And, the way she described her injury and how it happened seemed impossible to me, and she was very vague and elusive about it. And then I started wondering what was really going on. And at the same time, I had another, young man, we'll call him Brody, and he would come and help set up for youth group.

  And, he said he had left his route to come help me that day. And I was probably thinking paper route at that moment, but as our relationship developed and he attended youth group and helped me set up chairs and games and food. I realized that he was not a paper boy, he was delivering other things.

  And what I realized that a simple donut and picking a kid up and bring him to sunday school. Changed his world in ways that he would describe to me as amazing. He had never had that kind of attention from an adult. And, here's a kid who has more money than me literally as an urban youth pastor, cause he's dealing and, and, but simply buying him a donut and driving him somewhere and spending time with him was transformational. And so just having my eyes open to the great needs. And what little things, just simply asking the right questions or being willing to spend time or buy a donut, and care can bring people, that normally have no interaction with the church, back in, into the connection with the church and then Christ, of course.

  Those

  people probably don't have many adults who are pouring into them just simply, because of who they are and to know them better and to love them. So I think that obviously would stand out as something different.

  Yeah.

  And of course, as you do foster care or work with at risk populations, there's a higher incident of mental health and medical trauma. Foster care, is more common in some demographics than others and so forth. So that also made me aware. And my second youth ministry, I had, middle school group that was about 25 teenagers in two grades, seventh and eighth.

  And I had three autistic Children in that group, a varying abilities. But that population, that number was not statistically significant, right? It was beyond statistically significant. And so I asked, what, what's going on? Is there something in the water here? And what I realized is that we'd become a place where children like that could engage that they could get to physically or emotionally and join the group.

  And, and so They started coming and, and it was just simply, if you build it, it will come type of, they will come and, and they showed up because we had, a welcoming environment environment that could take care of them, that we knew their struggles and, and suddenly we saw many children, from, families that were at risk or had disabilities showing up to my youth group, because we were just simply taking small, very minor steps to, uh, make it possible for them to participate.

  What was the pathway to you becoming a professor, as, I know you started out in hands on ministry in the church, so how did that, how did that evolve into where you are now?

  Yeah, that's a great question, Carly. I think, I've always been, interested in ideas, and asking questions. And I have a natural curiosity there. And, and I liked impressing adults. So that was maybe a strength and a weakness, right? Two sides of a coin, dark side. And I was always, I'm trying to impress the adults and those adults were often teachers.

  So that, that's just something, like getting approval from adults. We'll get good grades, okay. So. So there's that to professors often had good grades, in school. So it doesn't, not surprisingly. However, I think also, as I was early on in my schooling, I was young twenties, very young twenties.

  I was a brand new youth pastor. I was hanging out with a variety of other youth pastors from, age 20 to 50 in Portland, urban Portland. And we were networking. And, what I realized is that I was getting content, ideas, information, books, resources, people, networking opportunities, all those kinds of things that, everyone in my network didn't necessarily have access to.

  Most of the people in my network were far more experienced. had maybe larger churches, more resources, and so forth, but would often start turning to me because, they didn't have the connection to certain types of ideas, certain types of people, certain types of books, and I could say, oh, I could refer something to you, or you need to talk to this person, which is what a network is supposed to do, right?

  But, I started gaining an, a passion for then, how do we resource youth pastors to get the things they need in their hands so that they can be more effective in these areas of ministry, where maybe they haven't been able to take classes or have mentors and, they've had to figure out, reinvent the wheel, et cetera, inside, doing it, they're trying to figure it out 20 minutes before the horde of middle schoolers show up for, a youth group, right?

  Which is not the best time to figure things out by the way. So at that point, I started taking, notes, in my classes as I was studying ministry, theology, Bible, discipleship, evangelism, and not just for my own ministry, but actually what would I, what am I noting about the way the professor shares how they communicate and train me?

  And so I would note their techniques, the, the teaching you. Tips that they were doing and giving to me by modeling them, as well as the content and information that I needed for my own ministry. And then, yeah, it just progressed. So I just stayed in school for a decade, or so, and, and I kept doing full time youth ministry while, doing school part time and sometimes full time.

  And, and eventually started taking on adjunct classes. And then, there was periods where I was teaching what I was doing. Taking classes on about what I was doing while also doing it full time. So I don't necessarily recommend all that at once. But, I think there's a synergy, of course, in what we call the praxis, theory and practice put together the theory informs the practice.

  And then I go back and say, Hey, it didn't work like you said it did. I tried it, and, and then likewise, when I'm doing something, I can say, Oh, how does the theory inform this better? How does my learning about this help me understand the theory better? And there's that cycle of going deeper and deeper into it.

  And, and I think that's super important and helpful when, studying and practicing, we can't divorce the two, we can't separate them out. We have to put them together. So that's always been my passion. So I've always wanted to resource people in the church to mobilize them to reach teenagers and of course, the whole culture.

  And how do we equip and mobilize others? Has been my sort of question and passion. And so now I see a need now, especially in the area of foster care, trauma, disability, and especially in youth ministry in the local church and so forth. And so we're trying to lean into that because I think the church is ready to hear this and there is a great need.

  And, I want to equip the church with resources where they can, follow God's heart in this area.

  Yeah. You've, you've got a book coming out, um, soon, I believe, and the working title is Youth Ministry on the Margins. Who is on the margins? Mike, I think you've been talking about it here a little bit. Tell us who's on the margins as you survey the landscape of demographics, and you're aware of people out there.

  Who is that for you?

  Yeah, that's an important question, Mark. And of course, the margins, the lines, evolve based on who's making them, what theology they have. We tend to draw lines all the time. We tend to make lists all the time. And, one of the things I love about Jesus's teaching, especially, especially the, The, the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep and the lost brother, where he's basically saying, we need to get rid of our lists here of who is in and who is out.

  And, and we need to be going after all of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost brothers and because that aligns with the heart of God. Now, of course, we can't go after everything, every moment, right? So for this, for this purpose in this book, Youth Ministry on the Margins, we're focusing on sort of three specific things that I've found in both my personal experience with foster care and youth ministry.

  And of course, in the research that pretty typically overlap. And so disability, is one of those things, in an area where the church is, I think, again, as I said, becoming really aware of the need. And, and yeah. People with disabilities, whether physical or mental health disabilities, constitute in each of those groups about 20 percent of the population. So we can just say basically, and sometimes they have both mental and physical disability. And so if we just simply look at that number alone, 20 percent for either one of those groups, that's 20 percent of those people who are actually not getting to church. We know very clearly that people with physical or mental health issues do not engage the church and actually no one in their family engages the church as well.

  So think of 20 percent of the population and everyone in their immediate circle never going to church because they for various reasons. physical or health reasons, can't, and then when you look at, groups like foster care and so forth, often they have neglect or abuse, which can create traumas.

  They can create mental disabilities. They can get physical disabilities through the abuse. And sometimes those are temporary, and sometimes not. But, often kids at risk and those types of foster care environments move into the margins, away from the normal resources, and, and relationships that children need to thrive.

  And, of course, it also removes them from access to the church, for various reasons, like if they're in a wheelchair and they can't get into the youth room, they can't go to youth groups. Those kinds of things. And we need to be thinking about those who, just broadly defining margins, those who are on the margins of society, those who don't have access, those we are not paying attention to.

  And those that those are people that God deeply cares for and favors. He talks about orphans and widows, right? And and that's not. Everyone in that group, but it's a, a scriptural device called an inclusio, right? Which is the bookends, the A to Z, it's orphans and widows and everyone in between who we have ignored or shuffled off to the side or rejected in some way.

  God is very clear that he does not reject them. And, and we need to be welcoming and going to, and bringing those people, not just to serve them, but to be part of the church. Otherwise the church is impoverished. We don't have the gifts that they, are given by the spirit. They're not, leading with us.

  We don't have those perspectives and understandings that they would bring and enrich the church with. And so we're all impoverished by that. If we ignore the margins and stay in our comfortable status quo, et

  You mentioned, 20 percent of the population that feels pretty vast. I'm recalling a quote from the book, The Body Keeps the Score, book on trauma. And it says that for every returning war vet with severe PTSD, there are 10 children for whom their home is a war zone.

  Think of a statement like that, and I think of your 20%, it feels overwhelming. Is there something to that, to, to what I'm saying here, that it is really a massive problem?

  yeah, I phrase it like this. We normally talk about the, the 10 40 window being the unreached people groups of the world. If my stats are right, and, and I do believe they are, and they are worldwide. That means that there's 20 percent of the population of the planet that has a diagnosable disability or mental illness.

  And that we also know, at a very high degree, 90 plus percent, they don't engage with the church in any way. If that's true, they are the largest unreached people group on the planet, period. So when we begin to note that, then we can start to say what changes in our theology need to happen. What changes in our practice and strategy, or maybe even just simple things in our buildings, like wheelchair ramps and becoming ADA compliant and so forth. Maybe we train our youth staff and children's ministry staff on trauma.

  So it's not just a kid that has behavior issues, but how do we understand what's underlying those behaviors? And the behaviors are very real and often very difficult. But if we can understand the trauma or the disability, then often we can, work in much more effective ways to support the child.

  And, bring them into the community, support the family so that they can also be part of the community, even, and think of their siblings that are also outside of the church because of great needs of maybe another sibling, right? So that often happens when you have a child that has a, a disability or a mental illness or something along those lines.

  The siblings, who may be neurotypical, as we might call it, more in the middle of our expectations, if that's true. Right or not. They, they often are called glass children because they are ignored by the system. All the resources and time and effort are being poured into siblings, who have, a difficult need.

  The other siblings are often left out and they don't have access to, often educational support structures, tutoring, sports, and of course the church. They're, they're simply part of a system that's all turned inward on the great need of a person in their side, their family. And, and the family is often suffering and trying to do that all alone.

  And the church, is, has been broadly unaware of those

  Yeah. That makes me wonder, how aware is the church of these needs, both, here in America and globally, and how is the church becoming aware of these needs?

  Yeah, that's a great question. I can't give a definitive answer on that, of course, but what I can tell you, I'm very encouraged by a number of theologians who are writing very specifically on this area about disability and leadership in the church and spiritual gifts in the church about how, how we have, maybe not read carefully the Old Testament about, examples of, and the way God interacts with this specific group of people and cares for the margins and how to bring them in.

  And so I think as we do theological work, it will change, the way we do and practice ministry and strategy and so forth for, for discipleship and evangelism. Just, for example, we often think something like the Imago Dei is when I reflect God properly, or when I look like Jesus, then I'm properly being in the image of God.

  But if we take that stance, there's some problems there that when I'm, Not reflecting God, by my standards or my definition from external, not from God's definition, but from like our social definitions, we often then say, if this person's not producing or proper in some way, then, then they're not in the image or fully in the image.

  And we can begin to dehumanize people or cast them off to the side. And I think that's the real, the real problem with the margin. It's not just that we didn't notice them. And oh, now we need to do something about it. It's actually really at Beth, at base, a theological issue where we have drawn lines that don't include everyone.

  And, until we redraw those lines with, God's definitions in mind, we're imposing. These false boundaries and placing people on the margins of society and therefore out of the church and out of access to All of the community that is so needed to be healthy And so I think that's a theological turn that's beginning to happen lots of writing and thinking happening about that And of course, we're also seeing a movement in In children's ministry, especially about practical issues of, of being sensitive to sensitivity issues, like for children who have autism and maybe certain fans or lights or colors or textures are not helpful.

  And we know this, maybe, we need sensory rooms. And a lot of churches are turning to the education world and maybe even hiring, those who specialize, in, neurodiversity in an educational setting like a public school and bringing them in as consultants or even as children's pastors in the church.

  Of course, the typical church or the typical mission or parachurch ministry can't hire maybe somebody who is a special education director for their church. Maybe they don't even have a children's pastor, let alone someone specializing in that area. So we probably just need to become also very practical about how we train and equip and think about this.

  And that's one thing, our work is trying to do, how do we think about our theology and also, we don't need a million dollar budget to rethink our strategy to reach people on the margins. But there are some things we probably need to change. Like maybe handrails, things like that.

  And isn't there, yes there is, like a sociological, Emotional Intelligence, component to this, some people tend to be Even in many churches, they tend to be judgmental, or they have strong opinions about, oh, look at this child, how are they behaving, what's wrong with them, rather than moving toward becoming more curious as people, instead of asking, what's wrong, what's wrong with them, asking maybe, what happened to him, or what's going on in this person that I can understand better, a shift in, What we are like as people from being a little more, a little less judgmental or critical and more, Hey, I'm really curious about that.

  And then adding to that compassion, when you have curiosity and compassion, it's a powerful mix. I think Yeah.

  was two children. We were in Appalachia, and it was a very difficult neighborhood, a three county area, actually. And, Georgia, in the legislator had passed a rule, that, any, caseworker that wasn't visiting their children on a monthly basis could be legally liable or criminally prosecutable.

  And and of course it's good for social workers to see their children at least every 30 days. The problem was the system was so over full and overloaded and there weren't enough social workers to see the children that they currently had in the system. They just stopped pulling children from homes. And then they tried to find other ways to deal with the situations in the home, without making themselves criminally negligent in their jobs. . We moved in, did the training, waited and then we were placed with some children. What I didn't know at the time was that it was the only children that had been removed in a three county area in about five months.

  And it was such a disastrous and difficult and, abuse, laden case, that they would only show up with two police officers at the home to visit the family because they were, physically at threat. They moved the children out of the county. We never met or saw the parents, we would have to, take different routes home to go drop them off at the center where they would do visits, and then they would move the kids to it.

  That kind of stuff like we're playing cat and mouse to protect the children, but we brought, we brought these kids home and, The girl was five and she was wearing shorts and a tank top and had one flip flop. That was it. That's all we had. And we found out that the shorts were actually two t pants made for an 18 month old.

  And no underwear, no nothing. And the two year old boy, her younger brother, couldn't walk or talk. And we went to Walmart, bought him some stuff and found out that she would grab things and try to eat them, tear them apart with her teeth. She would chew up her bedding on a nightly basis, had never slept in a bed and so forth.

  And, we entered, quite literally a very difficult time. That was the worst in our lives. I slept in, I slept at the foot of her doorway, for about, Three weeks. She offered herself to me sexually, for example. So we're trying to carefully navigate this really difficult situation.

  And, and it was beyond our capability. We went to church, locally and we were relatively new to the community and we called the church and we say, we have this situation. I don't think you guys can handle this. And they said, let's look into it. And they said, no, you need to come. And so a couple of weeks into the placement, we show up at church and a lady met us.

  She was, in her mid forties. She says, I've been a special education teacher and consultant for 15 years. And she took, our little foster girls, five year old hand and looked us in the eyes and said, everything will be all right. Meet me back here in two hours. And, and she became a buddy for our little girl and walked off with her and we went and cried for an entire hour because we were just so relieved.

  And then we went to church and sat in church and were able to engage with other adults for the first time in many weeks. , and we're just so thankful that the church had stepped up. Okay, so that's the good part of the story. The bad part of the story is, the children's, got out and we went and picked her up and, we had other kids with us as well, some we adopted and they were doing little laps around the pews in the church while some other people from our new small group were buying pizza and they were going to take us and our kids, foster kids to the park and we were going to play and everybody was going to watch this one little girl to make sure she was safe and, and all those types of things.

  But they were doing little laps like a racetrack around the pew. And my wife and I were standing at one end corralling them while the pizza was being bought. The lights are turning off and all this kind of stuff. And the pastor came up to us. And he said, Hey, get those kids out of here.

  This is the sanctuary of the Lord.

  Yeah.

  And,

  Yeah.

  maybe that wasn't the best place to play with the children, but we were a little bit at wit's end and we didn't know what to do. And I think, at, in evidence, there are two very different theologies. One is, let me take your hand. We will come alongside you and provide, and provide community and resource, for this, very difficult situation.

  And this very difficult child, she was very difficult. And then on the other side, where the room became more important than a foster child who had never been to church in her life, and was there for the first time and we were asked to leave because, they were giggling. And I think that just exemplifies we need to change in theology and we also need to be places that can step up.

  It doesn't, that church did not have a sensory room or paid staff, but they were able to accommodate us and allow us to actually go to church as foster parents. And I think if we can become places like that and move away from a theology that sort of. Lands on, the secondary or tertiary issues and focuses on the IMAGO day in all people, then we're going to be at a much better place of able to minister to people and allow them to minister to us too.

  Even shifting from a concept of God being remote and harsh and austere and, All of the appropriate detailed behavior is what's most important or you get slapped versus a tender loving father and Jesus who is there and welcomes the children.

  Even if the pastor had, gone down on his knee, asked the kids their names, met them and then said, Hey, let me take you to the place where they can run. That, that would have been a whole different approach than, something coming from a, this, really strong theological bent towards buildings over people.

  Mike, what kind of resources are you developing, for church leaders and mission leaders, on this journey that you're on that would help us provide more accessible spaces, that are inclusive of disabled populations of those struggling with mental health and their families?

  There's a lot of good organizations, doing work in these spaces. Youth for Christ has a work in this area. Johnny and friends has been doing this for decades. There are some manuals and, practical stuff we can learn from schools, thinking about sensory room and specialized training for teachers, integrated, and we have to think through our philosophy.

  Are we going to do the buddy system like the woman who came and took our little girl and? Spent time with her and in a group and walked with her through the Sunday school program. Are we going to talk about separate spaces for, people with certain kinds of disabilities or integrate them into the entire program?

  So we have to think through our philosophy. I also think we need to just step back and ask the right questions. I have a friend who's working on the book with me, Laura Widstrom from Olivet Nazarene. She teaches youth ministry there as well, like I do here at Taylor. We're working on this project and she talks about calling ahead to churches when she moves or changes communities.

  And, often she doesn't get calls back. She's I have a autistic son. He's adopted from the foster system. We have these issues and they're like, okay, we'll talk to the children's pastor and they never reply. And she's okay. So that's sort of a indication that they don't know what to do with this.

  Or, they, they can't answer my questions and just don't. But I think it's important to, as ministers to look at your ministry space, starting with the phone. How are we able to respond to families like mine who call and say, I have this foster children with some profound disabilities. How can you help me?

  We need to know how to answer that question and how to get them to the right people and so forth. We need to think about our website and what information could be on there. I don't think we need to have entire pages for specific ministries for children with exceptionalities or disabilities. But parents are looking to see if they can get into the building.

  Where's the parking, how's the lighting, how's the sensory stuff, and then to maybe actually walk through our buildings and our ministries and see, could a teenager who's in a wheelchair actually get to the youth room or the Sunday school class? And I hear all the time, this comment, when I'm having discussions with youth pastors and I have, I've been there myself.

  I don't have anybody with a disability in my youth group. Again, I think if you build it, they will come when we start providing access. I think people will engage with that because it's so desperately needed. And, and when we find ways to make spaces welcoming for different groups. And maybe finding buddies for to walk through specific needs, those kinds of things.

  I think we'll find people coming out of the woodwork to engage our ministries. But until we actually walk through our spaces, our bathrooms, the signage, tactile sensory lights type of stuff, and just getting some basic awareness of how this affects, whether it's a child with autism or a kid who's just gone through a traumatic experience, we need to become aware.

  And I think that's just, a helpful sort of walk through type of approach. Yeah, and then to have policies and, practices. People who are trained, how we thought through, okay, when somebody shows up, how do we work with a parent? To make sure that they're at the right types of experiences.

  And, for example, a child, I had three kids with autism in my youth group at one point in a group of 25, they didn't participate in every game. Some of them were not appropriate for them. They didn't go to every single message. Some of them weren't developmentally appropriate for their spot.

  And so I communicated with and worked with the parents and that child's buddy to make sure that it was, coordinated, so that we're actually working with the parents and the families for the interest of the child's best needs because the parents know better than anybody what the child actually needs.

  And if we're not incorporating them into our ministry, then we're probably missing the boat. A lot of times, you know, we just want parents to drop off their kids and then we do ministry at them

  Yeah,

  instead of with the child and with the family and incorporate the family's needs and understandings for their own child for the best possible

  effect.

  it's a challenging hill we're climbing. We have brought our son to church on a few occasions and even if, and when he is able to, experience. And be in a setting that might not be tailored to him, but is not opposed to him either.

  There are still like his own social and anxiety issues that make it even more difficult, I think, for this, for many in this population.

  And the whole church has to be on board. If you bring in children with sensory issues, they may react to the color of the chair. Are we willing to bring in a different color chair for that child to sit in? And I've been in places that would not allow such things.

  And other churches that would have changed every single chair in the room to make it work, um. Yeah, Mark, I think that's absolutely true that we need to be, sensitive. We need to be aware. We need to be asking questions. We need to be seeing it through their, their eyes and, and we need to be willing to be uncomfortable.

  If we invite somebody with Tourette's into the worship service, or if they have unsort of controlled, motions, they will disrupt our, status quo, our peaceful service, if you will. And, and we need to be willing to do that if we want to include them in the full life of the body.

  Yeah, when we took our son to church once during a quiet moment in worship or the sermon or something, he just speaks out loud something like, Mom, I'm bored. I want to go home. There, there are those dynamics that will be at play.

  That happens all the time in youth group normally,

  but yeah, in the church service, that's a little different. Yeah.

  And children are already disruptive, just by nature. So I think if we want to be inclusive of, the whole body, we need to start getting used to those disruptions, whether they be from a baby or, somebody who might be struggling in the moment or, whoever it is, I think, we need to be more understanding of that.

  Hmm. As we were preparing for this call, Mike, Carly and I were saying how we just, we love this conversation because one collective has our missions, our mission is that we bring people together to help the oppressed. People on the margins is the focus of our work around the world.

  And even intentionally. We have a few locations that are working directly with people with disabilities and mental disabilities, physical disabilities, and our, our leaders, more and more, they are exploring ways that they can engage this part of the population.

  And of course, disability isn't the only margin, but I think it's a margin that we're beginning to be aware of. And, and the resources I think will be able to transform our, ability to, Welcome and make them a part of, and then let them bless us. And it's not a matter of doing ministry to, but doing ministry with, and I think that's another perspective change, that everyone in the family, I've got everyone in the church has a gift, a spiritual gift given by the spirit.

  And, that includes people with exceptionalities and disabilities that includes all ages, right? It includes those on the margins or those in the center. However we want to make, those boundaries, we all have gifts. And, uh, when someone is not allowed to give their gift to the church. Church. We understand that creates disunity and immaturity and division.

  We've got a problem if we're not welcoming the gifts, across all peoples that, are part of the body.

  What would you, uh, say to students as they're contemplating their future and they may be wrestling with, this, they may be, just becoming aware of this need in the world and considering whether to make it a part of their future. Yeah. What advice would you give to students?

  Yeah, I love working with young adults, teenagers. That's been my whole life. My, my majority of work right now is, late teens, young adults, training them for ministry and it's so fun to help them find, not just their gifts, and interests, but a passion. And I really, Tell them when you start to feel something for a group of people, or even a location or a need, that's really your heart aligning with God's heart.

  God's already there. God's already at work. Firmly believe that, in a number, theologically speaking, God's already there at work. And, and he's probably drawing you into that. I also want to warn them that you can't, fulfill every need and, address every margin all at once.

  And Yeah, and so grow into that passion. It's okay to have a focus. We need different kinds of people and different kinds of ministries to meet the different needs. And I think as a body, as we respond to God's heart for all of these groups and all of these needs, then we all together do the work of God and make the kingdom more evident.

  Here on earth. So yeah, I would tell them to lean into it to find the thing that resonates with them, to not worry about the things that they can't do or can't solve right now, but to lean in on that one thing. And so it's, it's really not a matter of just finding a good thing to do, because there's always good things to do.

  In fact, there's always great things in the kingdom, but the real thing is to find the thing that you were created for. And, uh, what, what is the one thing, that God is asking of you? And if we settle for good or even great things, we'll probably burn out and we might miss, great joy in our lives and ministry. Because I've had 40 foster children come through my home on temporary basis and like 15 long term people often ask me, you know why I've done that or what's it like and often young people will say I want to do that. I want to warn everyone. I've worked in urban environments, I've dealt with, violence and drugs and, criminality.

  I've had police snipers in my junior high room shooting out of the windows, those kinds of environments, really interesting stories. But it was, but that's nothing compared to when I brought it into my home. And I think it's one thing when we hold off at arm's distance, ministry, and we can create a program.

  Or keep it within certain timeframes or boundaries. I don't think hospitality allows us to do that. Biblical hospitality really requires us to offer not just tea and crumpets between five and seven at my predetermined location, but to actually Invite someone into my life to the point where, I sacrifice for them.

  And then they also have rights and responsibilities back to me. That's just sort of oriental hospitality, right? And that's what Christ offers for us. As a host would, that he sacrifices his life in place of his guests. That is the story of redemption and salvation, right?

  That Christ's hospitality was incredibly costly, cost him his life, but in place of ours. And when we enter into these types of spaces, it's one thing to let a teenager who's lost and ran away from their parents, sleep on your floor while the police are coming or something like that, because you found them.

  It's a very different thing to invite it into a lifestyle and to move into the neighborhood. But I think those are the places where the light shines the brightest and it's also, deeply difficult. And I don't think everybody needs to, necessarily do foster care or, work, in disability ministry directly.

  But if we don't support one another in these things, if we're not praying for, I've had times when foster placement happened or, we had a child with a disability. People didn't mow my lawn or bring me a lasagna. Like it wasn't going to happen. Right. So there's ways to support one another in this without, having to, necessarily, do it all ourselves.

  And, and again, it's a body effort, right? If everyone in my local church was doing foster care, my local church would not exist. I, I mean that literally, like we wouldn't survive. But, when some of us do foster care and everyone participates in it, it becomes doable, right? I think that's the way we need to think about ministry to youth on the margins.

  If we are simply trying to make a program

  Yeah

  do it all ourselves, it won't work for various reasons. But when we come together as a body and create an environment, a community, a culture, and be the church, then we can bring people into that. And it won't, it won't, it'll tear us apart in certain ways, but in all the right ways.

  I love your insertion of the topic of hospitality Mike it reminds me of henry nowens. He has a number of statements on hospitality and one of them is Hospitality is not an atmosphere we provide where we are trying to change people. It's providing an atmosphere where change can take place. And, it, and it will be messy.

  Change is hard and especially perhaps with people with unique struggles, the change could be, expressed in ways that are harder for us. And so I, I, I love. The messiness of hospitality, if you will, but the deep value of it because so much life can take place there.

  It's beautiful when we live out being the church and, and understand our calling and, and God continues to grow us in those ways. But again, we've got to be willing to be uncomfortable, right? It's not, hospitality is not on my terms with my boundaries in my spaces. It's really a self sacrificial activity where we offer ourselves, you know,

  We totally agree and we can definitely see the investment that you're making in this next generation of leaders. It is significant. So that's very evident. Just in our several years long relationship with you.

  So

  Yeah, thank you.

  Your bio, Mike says that you are committed to providing love, care, opportunities, and safety to the most vulnerable among us. And I just want to say that I see that and we value that. And, may the Lord 📍 bless you as you continue in that trajectory.

• Links & References

  • Ministry with Youth in Crisis (Newly Released Book by Dr. Mike)

  • The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Bessel van der Kolk – Insights on trauma and healing.

  • Wounded Healer by Henri Nouwen – Reflections on compassionate leadership.

  • Learn about Dr. Severe’s work.

More Episodes from One Collective

#5 Transforming Lives Through Urban Ministry and Education - Dr. Tommy Carrington:

Episode 5 | 28 Minutes | Dec 24, 2024

Have you ever wondered how your story could shape a life-changing impact on others? From growing up in Jamaica to leading urban ministry efforts in Miami, Dr. Tommy Carrington’s journey is a testament to the power of stepping into God’s calling—even when it feels daunting.

#5 Transforming Lives Through Urban Ministry and Education

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of the Innovate for Good podcast, Dr. Carrington shares how his passion for at-risk youth led to decades of transformative urban ministry, the founding of the Urban Training Network, and a role as a professor equipping the next generation of ministry leaders. Whether you’re considering a career in ministry, urban work, or nonprofit leadership, Dr. Carrington’s story will inspire and challenge you to embrace the unique ways God can use your gifts.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Dr. Tommy Carrington’s early years in Jamaica and transition to the U.S.

• How a college internship ignited his passion for urban youth ministry

• Founding the Urban Training Network to empower underserved churches

• Lessons from 30+ years of ministry in Miami’s diverse communities

• Why teaching the next generation of leaders fuels his passion today

• How students can overcome apprehension and make an immediate impact in ministry

• About the Guest

  Dr. Tommy Carrington is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, with decades of experience in urban ministry, youth mentorship, and nonprofit leadership. Born and raised in Jamaica, Tommy immigrated to Miami, where he served as a chaplain in a juvenile detention center and later as an area director for Youth for Christ. In 1995, he founded the Urban Training Network, an organization dedicated to equipping churches with tools to reach underserved youth. Now a professor, Dr. Carrington is passionate about preparing the next generation of ministry leaders to serve communities with courage, creativity, and compassion.

• Episode Transcript

   welcome to the Innovate for Good podcast. Um, I'm Carly. and

  Mark.

  we are talking to people who are making a difference in their fields. And today we're here with Tommy Carrington, Dr. Tommy Carrington, a Christian ministries professor at Taylor university. So thank you so much for joining

  us today, Tommy.

  My joy.

  let me just say just again really quick, good to see you. I've been in like a handful of your classes and that's always been fun. You've been so gracious to allow me, one collective, to share about, who we are in your classes and meet with your students. I'm sure we'll be coming there this fall.

  So,

  tommy, we are really curious about your early years. You grew up and you were raised in Jamaica. I've got all kinds of questions, but I'll just let you talk.

  Yeah, born and raised in Jamaica. My, both my parents are Jamaican. A lot of people ask me if they were missionaries or anything and the answer is no.

  And as far as we can trace back the, history, we're Jamaican, you know,

  Carrington's in the Caribbean and Trinidad and Jamaica.

  That is so interesting. And Jamaica, the national language is, I mean, it's English, right? But there's also the local language.

  Well, so the national language is English. So we were a British colony and the British, you know, brought African slaves and Indian. So there is a dialect. So it's not a fully formed language per se. you can't write it, except phonetically, so people will speak it, and we call it patois, but it's, it's basically broken English with a few African words and made up words, and it's, it's, it's interesting, but, but yeah,

  or, or, Yeah, our basic language is English.

  And do you have like a memory or two that, stands out from your childhood? Oh, wow.

  Lots of great memories. Well, guess the one that stands out is I grew up in the capital. So in the city, Kingston, which is not particularly remarkable or anything. So tourists don't really go there. but island of Jamaica is beautiful. And so the highlights for me as a kid was to go with my family.

  We would go to the mountains, you know, the blue mountains or, mountains in Mandeville or of course the beaches. So the nicest beaches were in the North coast or the, furthest West coast in Montego Bay and Negril. Kingston was close to the ocean, but not nice white sand beaches like you have in the other parts.

  So yeah, the contrast of mountains and hills and then the ocean right there. You literally come off a mountain and you're at the ocean, yeah, it's absolutely stunning and beautiful.

  Wow. Do you still have family there?

  I don't. So when we left, gradually the whole family left, including cousins and aunts and uncles. And yeah, so when I, go back, which is not too often now, but when I do, who I see would be like my church family. So I still have good connections with people from the church that I grew up with.

  So kids that were in youth group with me who, you know, one is now the senior pastor and the youth pastor and the elders. And so, yeah, that's cool.

  So what

  brought you, specifically to Miami?

  So when my parents decided to immigrate, they chose Miami. I'm trying to think why, because I graduated from high school. And so, you know, you just go with your parents. They chose Miami. We had connections, not family, but just people that we knew. So it was very hard to, when you immigrate from a country and you just arrive in another country, you kind of need a foundation.

  You kind of need a base. So there were families that took us in and showed us around, helped us get our first job. I had my first

  job at 16. I was a car porter for, a major, car company, and

  then I was a bus boy and then waiter at a restaurant at nights. And on weekends I worked at Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips.

  so you were just immersed right in the

  community from the beginning right when you moved there

  yeah, we came here with very little money and the clothes on our back and the suitcases and everybody went to work. Mark says: Well, that is amazing that you made that journey and got connected so quickly. I want to switch gears a bit, you hvae a passion and interest in community urben work. Can you tell us how you went form a Car porter to running a non-profit and teaching?

  And in Miami, I'm thinking that's kind of where your interest in community work and urban work kind of was hatched. Right? I mean, you probably began to see some things in Miami that were sparking an interest or maybe a new direction in life for you. Tell us a little bit about that.

  Yeah, so it didn't start out that way. I was a psychology major at a Christian college. Biblical studies and counseling psychology. And as a part of my college internship, we were required to do an internship. And the way they put it, you know, this is an undergraduate level, so you're not doing serious clinical counseling, but they wanted us to at least experience the.

  Field of psychology. So I did an internship with a Christian counselor. I did a few months with a marriage and family therapist. And then I did three months with the chaplain of the juvenile detention center in Miami. It was chaplaincy, so it was a combination of church programming, but then we would go back and talk with the kids one on one.

  So that was my introduction to, working with kids at risk. And, yeah, something ignited there where when I was doing my internship with clinical therapists, it was okay, but I just couldn't see myself doing that. They were amazing therapists. I just couldn't see myself doing that.

  And when I was working with the chaplain of the juvenile detention center, And I would talk to kids and I would share the gospel and I would, you know, listen to them. That's where it clicked. And that's where I developed a real passion and burden for these kids who were locked up in jail, basically. And hearing their stories and how they got

  there and all of those kinds of things really made an impact on me.

  And so, a volunteer position turned into a part time position and then a full time position. And so, yeah, I was one of the assistant chaplains of the juvenile detention center in Miami for five years.

  I was just going to say that you launched this nonprofit. The urban training network. Was that later on? Or was that soon after you had this experience with the detention center,

  Yes. So it was much later on. So I served in the chaplaincy for five years.

  And then one of my burdens was, hearing all these stories about how these kids came from their life story and their family backgrounds. And so I developed a burden for, what's the life of a kid before they get locked up, before they get to this stage.

  And so I became an area director with Youth for Christ.

  Liberty City, Overtown were my areas. And so working with kids who would be considered at risk kids, just community kids, And, doing evangelism and discipleship in that context. So I did that for seven years. So I was with Youth for Christ for 12.

  And then I started my own organization. So 12 years later.

  Wow.

  What prompted you to take that next step of transitioning from that role with Youth for Christ to actually starting the Urban Training Network? Right.

  but one of the biggest ones was, well, I'll give you two big ones. So one was, in my role with Youth for Christ, I did Miami's first urban youth workers seminar, and we just decided to just do a training, not for Youth for Christ staff, but to advertise it to the community and bring people in for training.

  So it was an African American fellow. Staff worker and myself that had this idea. And so we, said we're going to do the seminar and we're kind of joking with each other. Your mom will come, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he said, you know, your brother will come, right? And I said, yeah, my brother will come.

  So we got the word out. And when the day came over 200 people showed up for this training

  and the two of us looked at each other like, Oh, we were like, Oh, somebody called churches chicken quick.

  Cause we don't have

  enough. Yeah, We don't have enough lunch. We don't have enough materials. And it was amazing. So at the end of the day, we both looked at each other and said, you think there's a need here? And we kind of said there, there's a need. And so that was the spark.

  That was the first spark was the fact that there was such a need and people came hungry and they just wanted to learn and they were just

  so, you know, so this was in the community. The other thing that sparked it was I realized that when I was picking up kids for our youth group, we had a van, I would drive around and pick up kids, I would literally pass.

  30, 40 storefront churches to get to, you know, the spot where we were doing our Bible studies. And I would always wonder what happens in that little church in that corner. What about on that corner and that corner, all these churches, do they have youth groups? Are they reaching kids?

  And so I ventured, I would knock on doors and find out that Nobody had office hours there. But I would try to find the leaders. And so between the seminars and door to door, I just found out that there's a huge need that they don't typically have youth groups, but they wanted to. They didn't know where to start or what to do.

  And so that was the spark that led me to say, you know what? This is a full time ministry. We've got to build relationships with churches and bring training to them and help them.

  Wow.

  Yeah.

  And that was kind of the birth of this entity.

  so the Urban Training Network was born and, initially it comprised of, trainings. So, I continue to do the Urban Youth Workers Seminar, in fact, in 2019, we celebrated the 33rd Urban Youth Workers Seminar in Miami.

  Then it turned into, mentoring and ongoing training and weekly trainings and yeah, it just grew and exploded.

  It sounds like that the churches maybe weren't aware that they were, uh, one of many that there were many in the same that didn't have access to this training and that you were kind of uncovering this as you were talking to many churches, which we often see that churches aren't working together, aren't speaking to each other and they're divided even as they have

  similar goals.

  Yeah. Yeah. And then the word started to get out, I don't want to say that I became a household name in Miami, but people text me now and say, you know, I was

  just meeting with a pastor or youth pastor and they mentioned your name and they miss you and they want you back and all of that.

  You know, 33

  years of doing the same

  thing in the same general area. Yeah, your

  name gets around.

  Yeah. I mean, household name in Miami might be something like LeBron

  James or something, but, but, um, so how did this contribute to like, further transformation in the city?

  one of the exciting things that I got to witness are things like churches that didn't have any youth ministry at all to launching a youth ministry and getting it going. And then I would see transitions like churches that had a small youth ministry, but It was either all programmatic, you know, you just show up and there's, you know, the way I say it, you, you sing for an hour, preach for an hour, send everybody home, you know, it's just a program.

  And so I'm going in and I'm training them and how to build relationships, how to do events, how to do, community outreaches, you know, those kinds of things, creative, elements of youth ministry. So to watch a youth ministry go from all we used to do is Wednesday night or Friday night youth group.

  And now to recruit volunteers and now they're going into schools and they're doing Bible clubs and school campuses and all different things that I got to, to witness happen.

  here

  So it was going really, really well. And when I had this, notion to leave it, to go back and do a second doctorate, that was, that was a tough decision, but

  I bet.

  yeah.

  What led you to pursue that second doctorate? What were some of those factors in your mind that you're considering?

  Yeah. So number one was, I loved what I was doing. I was passionate about it. But all my life from graduation, from college, I have had to raise my own support, and I don't know why, but it just became, harder and harder, and it just became if I didn't do more fundraising, then I couldn't support myself, but it would take away from the ministry.

  And just, it became a financial struggle. The second thing that was happening at the same time was I was

  loving training. I was loving this idea of passing on to the next generation, all the things that God had given me the, opportunity to learn and do.

  And so I wanted to formally pass it on to the next generation. The one of the best ways to do that is probably through a college.

  Yeah.

  And when I would apply to teach, I had a doctor of ministry, but most schools want you to have a PhD. They would just say, we'd love your background. We'd love your training, but accreditation requires us that our full time professors have PhDs.

  And I thought, you know what? I've wanted this all my life. I've dreamed of it. I'm going to do it. Sold my house in

  Miami, moved to Illinois and pursued a PhD at Trinity.

  is so exciting,

  Tommy. As someone who knows you just like in classroom short conversations, hearing this story, I mean, starting with You're from a Jamaican family. It's like, this is kind of blowing me away, but it's so enriching. And can you tell us a little more about like the transition now into your professor role? I'd love to hear more about that and just how that's going for

  Yeah. So, the burden to, pursue higher education, get a PhD led me to move to Illinois. Went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I completed my coursework in two years. And then, after your coursework comes, dissertation. Well, when I finished my coursework, it was 2020. I finished, in January of 2020, then COVID hit, and you might think that might be a good time for me to write my dissertation, but, not so much.

  But at the same time, Trinity offered me a full time teaching position starting the fall of 2020.

  So, I transitioned to that and was teaching for them. My master's was in psychology and they needed a psychology professor. So I was teaching psychology at Trinity and I loved it, but it wasn't my passion.

  Okay.

  I was constantly thinking, do I want to train the next generation of Christian ministry leaders or potential therapists? And it was, you know what? It's, it's ministry. I want to train ministry leaders. I want to train

  the next generation of youth pastors. So anyway, I love teaching at Trinity, taught for two years full time.

  And then the opportunity at Taylor. came up and I knew the director of the program and, they needed a Christian ministry professor and they loved the emphasis on youth ministry and urban ministry. They loved, they loved the combination of all the ingredients that I would bring. And so, yeah, it was a natural transition.

  So in your role now, I've heard your passion for urban ministry and youth and training. What would you say is your, what do you love the most now? Like what's your biggest passion now in what you're doing?

  So, it's that idea of, you know, I walk into the classroom and I see the 18 year old Tommy Carrington sitting in that classroom.

  I see him, or her, right?

  And I see that. I see me in them. And I'm giving stories and telling them about, youth ministry and everything, and I can almost feel that feeling that I felt.

  Preaching my first sermon in the juvenile detention center or that first camp that I ever did with at risk kids or that first time mentoring a group of students from the inner city who loved, coming to my house and doing a Bible study, those kinds of things.

  And so, although I, I miss it, I miss that, but the opportunity to invest in the next generation of. young leader that's gonna go out there and do what I did for 30 plus years, you know? So that's exciting to me, and it's exciting to, sit with the students for coffee. Or in my office or, on campus and just be able to, listen to them, what's their heart, what's their vision and to speak into it and to, talk about my experiences and what led me to do what I did after college.

  And, you know, so that, that excites me.

  That feels like a really natural continuation of what you've done, you know, from your first day in ministry to where you're investing in this next generation now to continue those same things. Do you have any examples or stories of, How the second generation, of ministry workers has impacted the community or have gone on then to even train other ministry workerseither from when you were in Miami or as a professor.

  I'll tell you the most exciting thing that happened in the last 10 years. Just so I sold my house. I'm planning to move to Illinois and my kids. from my youth group who are now in their nearly 40.

  And they have, they're married with kids, but they found out I was leaving and they organized the

  reunion. We had kids come from North Carolina, Georgia, and of course all over Miami. And we had about 30 of them come and gather together. And it was just so exciting.

  And encouraging to hear their stories and those that are continuing with the Lord and those that went into ministry and, kids with master's degrees, kids from the projects of Miami that graduated and went to college, have a nurse, have a pharmacist that has a doctorate. just amazing to hear their stories.

  And of course, you know, as a basket case when they're saying things like they're pointing to the volunteers or myself and saying, you know, it was our tutoring program that led them to want to go to college and got them into college. And it was,

  The Youth for Christ program that this and I was just a basket case.

  It was so humbling, you know, but it was so beautiful.

  That's really special. that they, we're able to value you and celebrate you in that way.

  As you made that big transition. That's cool

  That was incredible.

  Yeah. So how does, how would you say that, getting involved in community transformation to work helps students. In their own lives and their own faith journeys.

  Or I'll say it again to how would getting involved in urban ministry help students develop and grow in their own faith journeys and their own lives

  That

  Yeah. So I'll tie it into, something that came up earlier. Somebody challenged me with the question and challenged me, but they asked the question and it was challenging, but you know, how do I feel about, you know, 30 plus years of urban ministry. And now teaching in one of the most, rural, suburban,

  uh, white evangelical schools in the nation, right? Have I lost my passion or have I lost the, desire to train and equip leaders in the city. It was actually an African American pastor, a mentor of mine, who was, talking to me about my story of possibly going to teach at Taylor. He said, Tommy, don't diminish the power and the opportunity of you inspiring the kid from Terre Haute, Indiana or wherever, inspiring them to go into ministry in a major metropolitan city.

  And who's better to equip them for that than you and your experience? He said, you're going to have students, that might graduate and go into suburban ministry or rural or whatever. But you're going to have students that your story is going to ignite with them. This passion, and they're going to want to possibly go into Chicago or, Miami it doesn't even have to be that big of a city, you know, have a burden for, diverse population, cross cultural ministry, all those kinds of things. And now Taylor University has a professor who that's his life experience.

  And you get to pass that on to these students and inspire them with that.

  It sounds like you have, experienced perhaps a number of times where you're talking with a student, maybe it happens in the classroom and the light goes off and they see something for the first time that they haven't seen before and That must be enriching and fulfilling for you.

  Yeah, definitely.

  Praticle for Students

  What would students getting involved in these, under resourced communities do for the communities?

  So the first thing that comes to my mind is that in the same way that I had the advantage of a college education, of Youth for Christ training, those kinds of things. And I didn't know how, under resourced communities weren't even aware of things like when I talk about a philosophy of youth ministry, those words by themselves, they were like, you have a philosophy of youth ministry.

  They were like, okay. So I'm equipping students. with resources and philosophies of ministry, strategies for ministry, how to do it. And so when they get there to wherever God takes them, they will have a wealth of information and resources that a lot of churches don't have and will appreciate it.

  Even from a 22 year old kid who just graduated from Taylor university.

  Yeah,

  to tell them that as a 25 year old, thinking that I have nothing to offer, what, what do I have to offer? And then I realized, Oh my goodness, I have a lot to offer.

  Oh, that's really helpful because I think many students graduate with a bachelor's degree and think that, they need further education before they can really make an impact. and you're an example and your life is an example of, um, what you can do right now, um, in your community and what you can bring and And they might, , Yeah, not realize all the training that they've had

  can really be put to practical use right

  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

  What advice question

  so Tommy what? Advice or piece of advice or message would you want to share with the student who's? Questioning like what what can I do with my life? I I'm interested in ministry and, and I've got this Dr. Carrington. He's my prof. And what would you, I know you teach them, but what would you, if some, if student is listening to this podcast, what word of advice would you give to them?

  So I guess the first thing that comes to mind is the advice that was given to me that I just shared about, you know, don't, don't diminish the, that, that you have, what,

  what you have to bring. And so a lot of people, some people are intimidated by the fact that they might not have, uh, a powerful testimony.

  Uh, they might not have, , , they might not be able to relate to, , an urban youth or somebody from a different culture, , those kinds of apprehensions, or I'm not good with kids or I'm not good at that, you know? And I would just say, listen, if God has planted it in your heart. And you know, you have a vision for this.

  There's a reason why that's there. And so God , can use you. Don't don't write it off just because that's not where you're coming from.

  So I give this as an example. I became a Christian at 10. Uh, I did grow up in a third world country, but you know, I have two parents and a good background and became a Christian at 10.

  So when I'm in the juvenile detention center in Miami and the guy turns to me and says, our speaker didn't show up. Can you speak? And I'm like, wait, who? He said, you just, he said, our speaker didn't show up, just speak. And I said, no, no, no. They told me it was just to serve Kool Aid and cookies. He said, he said, well, and then he says this, he says, well, just share your testimony.

  I said, my testimony, I became a Christian at 10. These kids are in here for murder. I have kids that they just blow up a building. What?

  Oh

  And so I was scared to death, scared to death. And so, but I shared the gospel. I just shared a simple presentation of the gospel and it incorporated a little bit of my story.

  And at the end of it, I have kids coming forward and saying, Oh, Mr. Church man, we want you to pray for us. We need Jesus. And they're crying and they're, I was just blown away. I was like, I got home that day and I said, okay, God, I don't know what you're doing. I don't get it. But thank you.

  Yes.

  for using me today.

  And so and so that's what I would pass on to the next generation of 22 year old. That's unsure. And can God use me? And what do I what do I have to say? Uh, can I relate all of those things that give us apprehension? And I'm just saying, if God plants it in your heart, um, you know, he'll equip you and give you what you need.

  And yeah, you go for it.

  That's really powerful. Thank you.

  Yeah.

  A quick question for you, Tommy, your students, many of them are, they're Christian ministry majors. Is that, is that

  accurate? Are they mostly looking for, serving opportunities within the U S or are, do they have interests overseas as well?

  So, within our department, we also have, they can major in intercultural studies. Which is the old, missions major.

  Yeah,

  that they now called intercultural studies. So, some of the students, when they, uh, are taking classes that I teach in, in introduction to Christian ministry or personal foundations for ministry, uh, some of them will be ministry majors, some of them will be intercultural studies majors, youth ministry majors.

  very much. so I have a fair amount of students that, uh, are, you know, interested in, ministry overseas.

  And then,

  and then I have students that, like I say, it wasn't on their radar before they took my class. And then they come in here, people like you come and

  present in class and, for some of them, it's the first time apart from a missions conference at their church, for some of them, it's their first time being exposed to, oh, wow, yeah, God can use me overseas.

  Oh, wow.

  That's great.

  Well, thank you so much for your time and Dr. Tommy Carrington. It was a joy to have you here to hear your story. We don't often get to hear the personal stories of, you know, some of these professors that we rub shoulders with and interact with. So this is a great opportunity to do that and, um, to hear how God's worked in your life and you in the lives of many others. And it's just, um, yeah, we're really grateful for your time.

  Thanks. It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

  Real treat, Tommy. Good to see you. I look forward to seeing you next time

  Yep. Yep. Same here. Take care.

• Links & References

  • More about Dr. Tommy Carrington

  • Youth for Christ

  • Building a Youth Ministry that Lasts by Mark DeVries

More Episodes from One Collective

#4 We Need to Reimagine Modern Worship - Reed Spencer

Episode 4 | 37 Minutes | Dec 12, 2024

Do you ever find yourself struggling to connect to God in worship? Many of us crave a deeper experience in worship—something that goes beyond performance and truly connects us to God and each other.

4: We Need to Reimagine Modern Worship - Reed Spencer

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of the Innovate for Good podcast, we speak with Dr. Reed Spencer, professor of music and director of worship arts at Taylor University, about how transformative worship is for building community, teaching theology, and learning about the character of God. Reed shares his journey from aspiring worship leader to choral conductor, his vision for expanding worship practices, and how music connects us to one another and to God in profound ways. Whether you’re a church leader, artist, or simply curious about the intersection of art and faith, this conversation will challenge you to reimagine how worship can truly transform lives.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• The role of wonder and imagination in worship and faith

• How choral music fosters community and personal growth

• Expanding worship practices to include diverse forms of artistic expression

• The spiritual and emotional impact of beauty in worship

• Practical ideas for incorporating creativity into church services

• Stories of how choral music has brought healing and unity in prisons and refugee communities

• About the Guest

  Dr. Reed Spencer is a professor of music and director of choral activities and worship arts at Taylor University. With a doctorate from Boston University, Reed has spent his career exploring the intersection of music, worship, and community. His work focuses on creating spaces where individuals can encounter the transformative power of beauty and the divine through choral artistry. From leading ensembles at Taylor to organizing performances in prisons and refugee communities, Reed’s passion is using music to foster connection, healing, and faith.

• Episode Transcript

  Today we're interviewing Dr. Reed Spencer, who is actually a college friend of mine from back in the day at Taylor university and, the early two thousands.

  I'm used to being called Dr. Spencer, but it's weird to hear you say Dr. Spencer. My students call me that all the time, but it's weird when you do. So

  Reid Spencer is a professor of music and director of both choral activities and the worship arts major at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. So Reid, thank you so much for joining us today in this conversation.

  Thanks for asking me to be part of it.

  Reid, can you tell us a little bit about your background and like music, like the role that's played in your life,

  yeah, I grew up as a pastor's kid doing music at church.

  Okay.

  so in a little church, you end up in front of people when you're pretty young. And I think that developed into, the classic combination of a love for music and a love for being celebrated and affirmed for being good at music.

  And, that's been a fun journey for me to grow out of and into new things. I, Decided to go into music in college, I think, with a desire to be a performer and with a call, a sort of ambiguous call in my life to be some sort of worship leader. And so I had a strong idea of what that might be, when I was 18 years old, which was probably to go lead with a guitar in a great big church.

  And, God has led me on a different journey to where I am now, where I think I'm a worship leader and a teacher and a performer of a really different kind than I would have imagined. And I'm really thankful for that journey and I think I've learned so much about myself and about the power of music and the power of community through that journey.

  So I came to Taylor, as a vocal performance 📍 📍 📍 major and then ultimately got really drawn into the community of the corral here at Taylor and the Taylor sounds, the ensemble of 18 or so, and, that became really compelling to me and I decided that it was something that I really deeply loved.

  So I went on in that and here I am leading the ensemble that really made me fall in love with choral music. And I'm grateful to be here.

  What were the doors that opened that actually brought you back to Taylor? Cause I know you taught at some other places first before returning to Taylor.

  To be fair, I always loved the corral, but it wasn't like, something that I thought would happen. It wasn't like a dream that I couldn't let go of or something like that. But I did a doctorate at Boston University and so my wife and I had our first son there. I'm going to

  in Boston and we loved the city and we got to experience really cool music. And my first job was actually at Wabash college, which was a college for men. And it was in Indiana. So I was suddenly pretty close to Taylor again and got to reconnect with, our teacher, Dr. Joanne Rettiger here and to stay in touch.

  And as she retired, it just seemed like it might be a good opportunity to apply. And It was good timing for us.

  You say there was a specific person in your life, you know, maybe it was Dr. Rettiger or maybe somebody else, that kind of had a, a real influence on you to pursue music and maybe even music instruction as a career?

  Yeah, I can point to music teachers and I think that most people who are music teachers point to their music teachers

  Hmm.

  Often people find a place of belonging in ensembles. I think that's my favorite part of leading a choir is that while on the surface we're just a choir and we just sing music together, I know from the lives of the students I interact with that we're more than that.

  And some of them, become lifetime friends. And the, some of them have nowhere else to belong here on campus. And I think it was always a place for me to belong to. And so I was drawn into that, inspired by the excellence of Dr. Rediger and the, the standard that was set. I also fell in love with the music and the way that the art helped me to see God in a new way.

  As I came into Taylor thinking I was going to go play guitar and sing at a church for the rest of my life. And I appreciate those who do that. I started falling in love with this new form of art and thinking, Oh, I feel. The presence of God in a different way than I have before I see God's manifestation in those around me in a different way and my vision of worship and community, all of those things expanded in my experience in the ensemble. And they have experienced more and more as I've gotten to lead and. So I think I fell in love with the music too.

  Tell us some of the ways that Curl music you, that you've seen it minister to people, either to your students or to your audience? Like how does that impact people, in their relationship with God or with un understanding the spiritual world?

  I look at my primary role as a mentor to the people in the ensemble. So we learn about things like, Singing in tune and singing with support and cutting off at the right time and, having vowels that are just like everyone else's vowels and all of this sort of mundane musical stuff that makes us sound great. all of that, I think we learn about, selflessness and Working hard for the sake of something bigger than yourself. Learn about creating something, but not being the one in the spotlight. We learn about seeing God in a chord and tunes perfectly. That is so beautiful that it moves our like whole body and soul.

  All of those things I think are primarily experienced by those who I get to work with every day. When we tear apart a poem and sometimes like difficult poetry, we will talk about where do we see God in this tragedy or in this person's perspective that is not like our perspective. So I think that's where I first see the passion that I bring to the table is really for the students, but we are a performing ensemble and a performance is a big part of what makes us. Motivated and the ministry we do is really profound and I've been trying to think about how to articulate that I think the word wonder is probably the closest I can come Sometimes we go and present the gospel most often we go and present something that's really beautiful that talks a little bit about Jesus and talks a little bit about the world and hopefully Is able to open someone's heart the feeling joy and beauty and move them a little bit closer to truth and goodness.

  And, I think that's how we minister on the average performance day. I'm always looking at our community here at Taylor and thinking, what do we need to talk about as a community? People have a pretty narrow understanding of what choral music can do. And I do too. And I'm always trying to expand that. And actually this is really strange to say from an artistic standpoint, COVID was a gift to us when I took the job, I inherited a bunch of traditions that I loved, and I did, and I wanted to carry on. And then, Of course, COVID came and put a terrible wrench in all of that. We couldn't do any of them and singing looked completely different. And I had to approach a year and think, what can the corral, like, how can I sustain the life of the corral over my first year and without just completely dying and that major constraint out of that was born. ability for the boundaries to drop in my mind and then the need to fulfill the expectation of my predecessor. Could I couldn't, right? Like we couldn't, we had this thing in masks and distance and outside all of these things. And so it helps me to really think creatively about what our community needed.

  And that was 2020. And there was a lot of conversation on. race and about, recognizing black voices in our community and in our world. And I knew that conversation in a place like Taylor would be sensitive. It is sensitive everywhere that it's polarizing. And so that's first. 2020, 2020 in the fall, we did an outdoor concert for our community and everyone filled the yard and we sang distanced in masks with lights.

  And we did a concert called I've Got a Sound and it was to elevate the black voices and artists and dancers of our community. And we did a lot of music from the gospel tradition and from the spirituals and black composers. And it was really successful. And in the way that. I measured that success was not like, Oh, everyone came and loved it, but that I was able to have conversations with our black students on campus and they felt like they were given a voice that they hadn't been given before.

  And that was really transformative for me as a leader to say, okay, like this corral has done a lot of things in its existence, but there are new things to be done. And. We can. So the next year we did a focus on mental health stories on our campus and we, I had people submit anonymous stories and poems and we sang a bunch of songs that were about depression and anxiety like weird Songs that you wouldn't think are written for choir, but they are and they're beautiful and then talked about like, how do you as a Christian navigate your relationship with God in the middle of that it was called in the middle There was dance and art and I am I moved by the creativity of our students and I've learned to just get out of the way a little bit and let us make Really cool, conversations that our community can be a part of.

  So we've done a bunch of that and that's another way that I think both our students in the corral, but also our larger community can be invited into the transformative power of God showing up in art.

  That is so inspiring and very personal, right? You're speaking to and about, people who. Have these really hard stories and you're singing about them. That's touching people in your community, but without putting a spotlight on them personally, they don't, they're not being like revealed in any way, but that I want to go back to your comment about music being corral music, you said something about the, use the word wonder. I remember when I visited your class, your rehearsal read, I sat and observed for, I don't know, 15 or 20 minutes before I got up for my three minutes of fame on stage. And that was great. That was great. But I remember, I got up on stage and I was, Actually a little speechless Because the music had moved me in ways that I couldn't really Explain, but I knew I felt there was something divine in it and a sense of wonder

  it's magic. Choral music is magic. I really think so. I think everyone loves choral music. They just don't know it yet.

  Yeah

  let alone to let the overwhelming nature of the beauty of the voices flood your senses.

  And then combine that with some text that actually speaks to your heart. Like it's everything lining up for an artistic manner to like really move our hearts. And I think so often we associate choir with a high school choir program where you barely learn the words and you get up and everyone's Oh, my son and daughter.

  And that's great because we need music education so badly in order to have We need that in order to be able to create really high level art at the college level. But I always tell the chorale like if people walk away and their takeaway was, wow, that was a great choir. Their voices were really great.

  That is, We have not accomplished our purpose. It is for them to walk away thinking, Oh, wow. Like I think maybe God is good and there's something true that I've just experienced. And I had a teacher in my master's program at IU, who was a very cynical, skeptic, not a believer. I one time watched him conduct Bach's St.

  John Passion, and which is a moving work, sharing, exploring the gospel and the death of Christ, and, Afterward, I talked to him and he had tears in his eyes and he said, in this moment, I believe, and I've never forgotten that because he is not a believer, but the, that beauty, the beauty of that art and it's profound meaning opened up his belief for that moment.

  And I think that happens for people I can't explain wonder, but I do think it's a gift. And when it comes, we get to receive it.

  It softens the heart towards God in a way that, maybe other things don't. And so it's like God uses this beautiful thing that he's given his creation to, reveal himself,

  To us. and connect us in a way that, we wouldn't otherwise maybe be connected. But it, yeah, allows people to experience him.

  So

  it's so cool.

  I think in the West, I shared this in a couple of classes this week, I think in the West, the Western church, we try to figure things out too much and there's this other thing over here where, Christians are in a relationship with someone who is invisible. And so there's mystery like built in automatically from the beginning.

  And so wonder. Isn't in the category of trying to figure things out. It's over here and I just love that.

  Our whole faith is built on imagination. When you do things like take communion or engage with the Eucharist, like that is, a deep act of imagination and you're imagining God all the time and so the development of our imaginations is crucial for actual good theology and often I think students come to Taylor thinking like my faith is actually quite rational and scientific no it's not It can be And I'm thankful for those who have made a strong case for Christianity.

  But if you don't have an imagination, you cannot believe. And to open up those channels of imagination through art is like really to let yourself have the possibility of belief in God.

  YEah,

  at Taylor. What does it mean to prepare students for like a career and a life of worship?

  I don't know. I am learning that I. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to lead the worship arts program. I have such a unique story that I've shared part of, to have entered Taylor thinking like, that's my path is I'm going to go do this worship leading thing. And now, like I said before, I think I'm doing that, but in a way that is so much different than I expected.

  And I think so much of my life has been a broadening of my idea of what worship is. And so I. I teach four or five worship arts classes throughout, a major church. progression here. And so much of that is less about teaching skills, though we do teach skills and more about, having a really strong understanding of what it means to habitually form your heart toward God over time through art. And I think that, Many people, I've heard many people say that, like, why would you get a degree in worship arts? Like you could do, most people could do that already. I'd say a good majority of churches would not expect a person that they hire as a worship leader to have a degree in worship. A lot of times people get hired right out of high school.

  And I think that there's not a lot of expectation for training. Also, I think most of the students here at Taylor. Whether they would say it out loud or not would think that they're experts in worship because they've been doing it We don't

  Mm hmm. have any actual framework for conversation about it Mm. have these different ideas about what it is and what it means And so as I think about like how to form a person through a degree I want them to be able to go out and articulate that they are forming You Congregations, they're forming hearts with a primary practiced theology that is not the same as a sermon, but it's actually probably more emotionally deep than a sermon. And it's something that's, carried further and longer and more, embodied than just sitting and listening. And we would never say that about a preacher, that a preacher needs no training, right? We Would expect that, but yet this person who's responsible for forming our liturgies that like are the things that actually go deep within us that we carry and practice, we have no expectation for at all. And, that's become more and more amazing to me, particularly in evangelicalism, because of the nature of how we've viewed worship in a very consumeristic way. Way. And when that all worship is, you don't really need the theological training, but when you think of worship as actually formative in our lives and forming our primary theology, of course, we need training.

  And I don't know, that's a sort of long winded answer to your question, but, I've become more and more convinced that the church needs people who understand the theology of worship and that can lead us well. and formatively and not just who can go up and play the song.

  Yeah, it sounds like a really holistic view of worship rather than the narrow view of worship that we're so used to when we think about worship music or conventional worship music, played in many of our churches. Because if look up on Spotify worship music, it is like generally just one type of music.

  And it's not really the whole picture.

  No. And I try not to bring a great degree of cynicism into the classroom because I believe that God is alive and at work through contemporary worship music. And I like a lot of contemporary worship songs and I'm really thankful for the way that has brought to life a lot of people's hearts and drawn them toward God.

  The problem is that. And this is cynical probably, but so much of contemporary Christianity has sold their soul to consumerism because it. works. It works. And I can say in the West in particular, people come, people are satisfied and it feels relevant and it's not super relevant. Like it doesn't speak to the reality of our lives all the time.

  It's just one narrow way of connecting with God. And we miss out on so much theologically, artistically, communally, we think of worship, we think of Hillsong and Elevation and Upper Room and all these people who have created music that's really good and has good theology for the most part.

  But that is. Made our experience in worship, just like an me and God in a dark room with loud music. It's completely disregarded the congregational voice the communal experience of Doing the work of the people together and I don't disregard it, but I challenge students to go beyond it I think it's been successful, but it's not super flashy.

  Like it's hard to advertise my program. It's not like something that looks good on a website. Like we're going to deconstruct your view of worship and

  Yeah.

  I'm here and you won't think of your church in the same way anymore.

  Yeah. So I, in my church, I was at a worship meeting. It was like a worship night and up front, they had, an artist, a painter with an easel and painting, this thing from scratch. And that was to go along with the music. And that got me thinking,

  wow. Okay. There's music, maybe some painting. Do you have an example or two of what it might look like for there to be a larger broader corporate worship experience Inside or outside of a building or church, whatever what could that look like?

  Earlier I was talking about how COVID totally transformed my view of the corral. And I think that sometimes we need to let go of our expectations or be forced out of the box that we think we're supposed to live into from a structural or even artistic standpoint in order to actually look right in front of us, to see who we are.

  And that's, I think what happened for me as the corral leader is like, Oh, I actually have been thinking about how to continue what my predecessor gave to me rather than looking at the people in front of me and what we all need and have to bring to the table. And suddenly like my role was transformed.

  And it actually was more honoring to her. Because I let her do her thing. And I'm doing mine in a way that is like honoring to the way, to the work that God has put in front of us. And I think that churches can do that too. I don't have a prescription per se, but I think that most churches are filled with people with really good ideas and they can look around and say, this would mean something to our community.

  And again, to go back to the consumerism model. Like we are basically fed new worship music from four or five main sources, and we take it and we use it and then we wait for the next thing. And it's all coming from somewhere else. And that somewhere else is actually making a lot of money. On our spiritual behalf. Great. Like we'll celebrate that, but in front of you are all these people who could make something really beautiful, whether it's art or whether it's some sort of creative communal activity, or whether it's a song, That's maybe that someone wants to sing a special music, which we've rejected because it was awkward, right?

  There are so many ways that we have tried to make our churches fit into the megachurch model When every church is a megachurch and we've lost the sense of just looking in front of us like right now we're doing the thing on scripture presentation. How we honor scripture and it's reading out loud and bring it to life in the church.

  And so I gave them a few examples of, something that my church has done where they move around during the scripture. And it's not an acting out. It's not really drama, but it's. I did a livening of the scriptural text and I said, this is just an idea. So every we have class twice a week. So every class, someone's in charge of a scripture presentation and sometimes they bring friends and sometimes they use class members, but it's interactive and it's casting light on.

  What we're doing as we interpret scripture out loud, and that's been an artistic process, and some of them are dumb and don't work, and some of them are really profound. And I love that exploration process as we Kind of figure it out together.

  So Reed, I think you probably know one collective, we focus on working a lot with people, demographics, people who are often oppressed in different ways. And so that could look like refugees who have really hard trauma stories or, disabled youth who have been abandoned by their families.

  Just a variety of people in those contexts. Do you see ways that music in the arts can provide a redemptive dynamic for those people who have really hard life context and situations?

  I try to program the corral in places that I think really need to experience beauty or maybe in places where there isn't a lot of beauty. And in a month or so, we're going to the Pendleton Penitentiary, The maximum security prison um, near Indianapolis. And we go through the security and we wear our tuxes and our dresses and we go and give a performance.

  And, we've done this several times and it's really profound for us, but I know we can see in their face. Faces and bodies and voices that, this is a, an experience that's really special for them because what we do takes a lot of work. It's not something that we just go throw together. It's something that we've practiced for hours and hours.

  And it's a good gift. It's a good gift to give. And so to be able to say, you are the people that we want to give

  Yeah.

  now I think is humanizing, it is, dignifying, it brings something really profoundly beautiful into a space with not a lot of beauty.

  I try to find those spaces because, while I love singing in beautiful cathedrals and.

  Spaces that make us sound fantastic, and we do that, I think that the most transformative moments for us as well, or when we get to take that ministry and give that gift in a way that are in a place where it's, Not often received. The world really needs beautiful things, not surface level, beautiful things, but like deeply beautiful. things to the transcendental beauty of God, I think in those spaces, bringing beauty in any form. Is dignifying and humanizing

  Yeah.

  Music in particular is universal.

  And so people can all connect to it in some way. And most people can participate it in a, in some way. And I think that I'm clearly biased toward choir. I love choir. I think that if everyone's saying in a choir, the world would, problems would probably be all solved like that. I don't know if you remember Renee Timby, Carly, did you cross paths with Renee at Taylor? I didn't, but I've since met her and she does work with refugees in Greece and has forms them into a choir. And that is. A transformative act of service for her.

  In fact, she got her doctorate in choral conducting just like me and felt that call to that work overseas to use her, talent and ability and gifting. And also the pedigree that she was able to learn in order to open doors and form, a profound missional. community with Syrian refugees in particular.

  So I think there are lots of examples of people who give that gift of beauty in those spaces. I often thought of missions as like you go and you build or you take medicine somewhere and I've come to believe that like when the corral travels overseas to do what we would call a mission trip, I used to feel sort of embarrassed about that. But now I see that like. We've developed a gift that we can give to someone.

  We're not going and providing them sustenance of the body, but we are providing them wonder for the soul. And sometimes that's the thing that people need.

  Yeah, people really need to be ministered to their whole self. So whether that's meeting a physical need, emotional need, spiritual need, they're all valid. And, that's the way that we try to do ministry with one collective in the communities where we work too. And we've also seen arts and music give people a way to process.

  Their grief and trauma and express their feelings that maybe they haven't even acknowledged or accepted like feelings that they have, but they can express it through art. And like you said, it crosses cultural boundaries, language boundaries, allows people to connect together. So it's really important in seeing like holistic community transformation is incorporating arts in that process. Reed, I want to quote something that you've said, 📍 📍 📍 you said , Creating art and community has transformative power to unite, teach, and help us engage meaningfully with the mysteries of God and one another. And I think that's something I believe so strongly. I think, we all feel that way. What do you think is so important about the community aspect?

  Like not just doing it individually, but doing it together.

  Yeah. When I hear the word artist, I usually think Beethoven or Van Gogh or some sort of tortured loner figure from the romantic period, or, or even today you think of, Swift or whatever, like artists who do things on their own. We most often recognize artists who are individuals and have their own brand.

  And as I every day get to look at a bunch of artists who choose to do that with one another instead, there's such a deep active like commitment to the place and to the people. There's a giving of the self that's more selfless. I think the result is more profound because just takes so much, effort and concentration and listening and Giving and vulnerability and all those things that form not only our aesthetic sensibility, but also our spiritual sensibilities that like form us into virtuous people, not just good artists. That's the community that I hope to build. Not every artistic community ends up that way. And in fact, some can be quite toxic. My comments about everyone being in a choir and fixing the world's problems. Probably isn't actually true, but I do think it's a profound way to experience one another.

  Because you're creating together. There's nothing like a community that comes together to make something and to do it well is just really deeply bonding.

  What's something we can take away? I mean, there's a lot of things that I think we've covered today, but what's something that anybody listening could take away from this, how could we kind of apply these ideas to our own worship practices and our own lives?

  Mm

  God is big and mysterious. I think we can all agree on that. God is bigger than our understanding of God. And we can get to know that more in worship. So whatever your worship practices, expand it, learn something new, find a new liturgy that can move your heart in a different way, listen to someone else who worships differently than you, go to an Orthodox church and smell the incense and think about why that is, has moved people's hearts for generations.

  Let art be connected to your worship practice.

  Because in so doing that, I think we get a fuller picture of who God is.

  I think for those people listening who are feeling that call to ministry and to doing the good work of building up communities and people like don't, just think about what programs you can bring to them. But look at the things and the people in front of you and let people create because people have something to say and allowing people to create together and facilitating and leading that creation is the most profound worship leading I've ever done. I so often think about. Churches doing programming in order to draw people in when really it's look at the people and let them create and help facilitate that creation. And I don't know what that has to look different for different types of people with different passions.

  I think people who are not just artists can do that

  I love that. In our teams around the world, Reed, they all do discipleship, but almost none of them have discipleship programs. We do it in the context of what the people are like that we are with and we're seeing God move.

  And I love what you have brought us today, Reed, and, it's been expanding, expansive for our thinking, my thinking, and I appreciate the time and the thoughts that you've shared here with us today. Thank you very much for joining us.

  Thank you for having me on and for being interested in the things that I care about. I appreciate it.

  I'm just like looking at Carly, who I haven't seen in years, and really great to see you. And as I look at you, I remember the songs that we sang together and the places we went, right?

  That is the thing that we shared together. And after all this time, like I feel such warmth and like joy and able being able to talk to you because I know you get the things that I'm saying on a heart level because we experienced them together in that community is really great to rekindle.

  So thanks for thinking of me and for inviting me on.

  Yeah. I agree. Wholeheartedly. Those were some of the highlights of my life, honestly,

  Yeah.

  it really does stick with you.

  Yeah,

• Links & References

  • More about Reed Spencer

  • Meet with Mark or Carley about Serving with One Collective

More Episodes from One Collective

#3 Overcoming Bible Burnout - Dr. Philip Collins

Episode 3 | 39 Minutes | Nov 26, 2024

Have you ever opened the Bible, read a passage, and walked away feeling like you didn’t get much out of it? You’re not alone.

#3 Overcoming Bible Burnout Dr. Philip Collins

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

Many people struggle with engaging scripture in a way that feels transformative, leaving them frustrated or disconnected. In this episode of Innovate for Good, Dr. Phil Collins, professor at Taylor University and general editor of the Abide Bible, shares how to move beyond simply reading the Bible to truly experiencing it. Learn practical ways to approach scripture that bring it to life, deepen your relationship with Christ, and transform the way you engage with God’s Word. If you’ve ever felt stuck or uninspired, this episode will give you fresh tools and insights to reignite your connection with the Bible.

---

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• How to stop feeling frustrated when reading the Bible

• Why scripture might feel dry or disconnected—and how to change that

• Practical methods to make the Bible come alive, like journaling and praying scripture

• How to engage scripture relationally instead of treating it like a textbook

• The key to reading the Bible for transformation, not just information

• Why community can unlock deeper understanding and connection with scripture

• Simple practices to reignite your passion for God’s Word and experience true spiritual growth

• About the Guest

  Dr. Phil Collins is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University and the co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement. As the general editor of the Abide Bible, Dr. Collins has dedicated his career to helping individuals engage deeply with scripture to encounter Christ in a transformative way. With over 25 years of experience in youth ministry and teaching, he brings a wealth of knowledge and a passion for equipping others to make scripture an integral part of their spiritual lives.

• Episode Transcript

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Welcome everyone to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective, a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carley Fortosis, and this is my coworker, Mark Foshager. We work as serving coaches with One Collective.

  Today, we have Dr. Phil Collins joining us. He is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement, and the general editor for the Abide Bible. Phil has a real passion for seeing people engage deeply with scripture, and that’s something we’ll be digging into today. Thank you for joining us, Phil, and welcome!

  Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you! It’s so good to be with you both.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Wonderful. Before we dive in, Phil, after we finish recording, please stay on the call for a minute or two to let Riverside upload your local audio and video files. It saves the recording directly from each participant’s computer, and then it uploads everything automatically.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Got it. That sounds good. I’ll stay on.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Have you used Riverside before?

  Phil Collins (Guest): No, I haven’t.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): It functions pretty much like Zoom. So, Phil, what’s new with you? What have you been up to?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Oh, lots! I’m teaching a master’s class right now, just finished three weeks of summer camp, and I’ve been visiting practicum students who are serving in different churches. I’ll actually be heading to Michigan this Sunday to see a couple of them. But the most exciting thing—about three weeks ago, I became a grandfather! And in a few weeks, we’ll have another grandson.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Oh, congratulations! That’s so exciting.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you. It is exciting.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Are they local or far away?

  Phil Collins (Guest): One’s in Milwaukee, and the other is right here in town.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Milwaukee—reminds me you’re from Wisconsin originally, right? Madison?

  Phil Collins (Guest): That’s right. I grew up in Madison. My son moved to Milwaukee for a couple of years, and my brother still lives in Madison.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Small world! I’m actually from Wauwatosa, which is right next to Milwaukee.

  Phil Collins (Guest): That’s where my son is now! He and his family moved there for a couple of years.

  Mark Foshager (Host): That’s fantastic. Wauwatosa is such a great place.

  Phil Collins (Guest): It is.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): My mom is from Madison! I love visiting there. It’s such a fun city with the lakes and vibrant atmosphere.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. Madison’s a fantastic place to visit.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): All right, let’s dive in. Phil, can you share a little about your background? You’ve already mentioned your Wisconsin roots, but tell us more about your ministry and teaching journey.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Sure! I started with Youth for Christ in Indiana and Illinois, working in the Chicago area for six and a half years. Before that, I was actually a Youth for Christ kid during high school. Later, I became a youth pastor in Indianapolis for 10 years. Now, I’m in my 26th year teaching full-time at Taylor University.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Aren’t you a Taylor alum as well?

  Phil Collins (Guest): I am! It’s been amazing to return to the place where I was a student and now be teaching. At first, it felt a little surreal, but after all these years, it feels like home.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Your bio mentions it was a dream come true to work at Taylor. Was that because of your roots there?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. My experience as a student at Taylor was transformative. I always thought it would be incredible to teach there someday. I prepared for that opportunity by pursuing further education, and when I was asked to join as an adjunct professor, I jumped at the chance. Step by step, things fell into place, and I’m so grateful for it.

  Mark Foshager (Host): You’ve worked with youth for quite some time—as a youth pastor, with Youth for Christ, and now at Taylor. What do you love most about working with students?

  Phil Collins (Guest): I love being present during a time of significant transitions. Those moments of change often set the trajectory for someone’s life. It’s inspiring to see students grow, make decisions, and start walking paths that will impact their futures.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): I completely agree. My time at Taylor was deeply shaped by professors who invested in me. Their influence has lasted long beyond graduation. I’m sure your students feel the same about you.

  Phil Collins (Guest): I hope so. It’s an honor to be part of their lives during such a pivotal time.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Phil, I remember you mentioned a question that deeply impacted you regarding scripture. Can you share more about that and how it influenced your journey?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. About 15 years ago, I came across a question that stopped me in my tracks: “How do you help someone read the Bible so that they’re transformed?” As someone who had been reading the Bible daily since I was 12, I realized I didn’t have a clear answer. I’d always been told, and told others, that praying and reading your Bible were the keys to spiritual growth. But I never really taught people how to engage with scripture in a way that would truly transform them. That question set me on a journey to explore how scripture could be a catalyst for deep, meaningful change.
  
  Carley Fortosis (Host): Welcome everyone to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective, a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carley Fortosis, and this is my coworker, Mark Foshager. We work as serving coaches with One Collective.

  Today, we have Dr. Phil Collins joining us. He is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement, and the general editor for the Abide Bible. Phil has a real passion for seeing people engage deeply with scripture, and that’s something we’ll be digging into today. Thank you for joining us, Phil, and welcome!

  Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you! It’s so good to be with you both.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Wonderful. Before we dive in, Phil, after we finish recording, please stay on the call for a minute or two to let Riverside upload your local audio and video files. It saves the recording directly from each participant’s computer, and then it uploads everything automatically.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Got it. That sounds good. I’ll stay on.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Have you used Riverside before?

  Phil Collins (Guest): No, I haven’t.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): It functions pretty much like Zoom. So, Phil, what’s new with you? What have you been up to?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Oh, lots! I’m teaching a master’s class right now, just finished three weeks of summer camp, and I’ve been visiting practicum students who are serving in different churches. I’ll actually be heading to Michigan this Sunday to see a couple of them. But the most exciting thing—about three weeks ago, I became a grandfather! And in a few weeks, we’ll have another grandson.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Oh, congratulations! That’s so exciting.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you. It is exciting.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Are they local or far away?

  Phil Collins (Guest): One’s in Milwaukee, and the other is right here in town.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Milwaukee—reminds me you’re from Wisconsin originally, right? Madison?

  Phil Collins (Guest): That’s right. I grew up in Madison. My son moved to Milwaukee for a couple of years, and my brother still lives in Madison.

  Mark Foshager (Host): Small world! I’m actually from Wauwatosa, which is right next to Milwaukee.

  Phil Collins (Guest): That’s where my son is now! He and his family moved there for a couple of years.

  Mark Foshager (Host): That’s fantastic. Wauwatosa is such a great place.

  Phil Collins (Guest): It is.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): My mom is from Madison! I love visiting there. It’s such a fun city with the lakes and vibrant atmosphere.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. Madison’s a fantastic place to visit.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): All right, let’s dive in. Phil, can you share a little about your background? You’ve already mentioned your Wisconsin roots, but tell us more about your ministry and teaching journey.

  Phil Collins (Guest): Sure! I started with Youth for Christ in Indiana and Illinois, working in the Chicago area for six and a half years. Before that, I was actually a Youth for Christ kid during high school. Later, I became a youth pastor in Indianapolis for 10 years. Now, I’m in my 26th year teaching full-time at Taylor University.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Aren’t you a Taylor alum as well?

  Phil Collins (Guest): I am! It’s been amazing to return to the place where I was a student and now be teaching. At first, it felt a little surreal, but after all these years, it feels like home.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Your bio mentions it was a dream come true to work at Taylor. Was that because of your roots there?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. My experience as a student at Taylor was transformative. I always thought it would be incredible to teach there someday. I prepared for that opportunity by pursuing further education, and when I was asked to join as an adjunct professor, I jumped at the chance. Step by step, things fell into place, and I’m so grateful for it.

  Mark Foshager (Host): You’ve worked with youth for quite some time—as a youth pastor, with Youth for Christ, and now at Taylor. What do you love most about working with students?

  Phil Collins (Guest): I love being present during a time of significant transitions. Those moments of change often set the trajectory for someone’s life. It’s inspiring to see students grow, make decisions, and start walking paths that will impact their futures.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): I completely agree. My time at Taylor was deeply shaped by professors who invested in me. Their influence has lasted long beyond graduation. I’m sure your students feel the same about you.

  Phil Collins (Guest): I hope so. It’s an honor to be part of their lives during such a pivotal time.

  Carley Fortosis (Host): Phil, I remember you mentioned a question that deeply impacted you regarding scripture. Can you share more about that and how it influenced your journey?

  Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. About 15 years ago, I came across a question that stopped me in my tracks: “How do you help someone read the Bible so that they’re transformed?” As someone who had been reading the Bible daily since I was 12, I realized I didn’t have a clear answer. I’d always been told, and told others, that praying and reading your Bible were the keys to spiritual growth. But I never really taught people how to engage with scripture in a way that would truly transform them. That question set me on a journey to explore how scripture could be a catalyst for deep, meaningful change.

• Links & References

  • The Abide Bible by Thomas Nelson

  • Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement

  • Abide Bible Course with Randy Frazee

  • More about Phil Collins

More Episodes from One Collective

#2 Why Hearing Scripture Matters - Dr. Brent Sandy

Episode 2 | 41 Minutes | Nov 12, 2024

Have you ever wondered if you’re missing something when you read the Bible? In today’s fast-paced world, many of us rely on written texts for spiritual guidance, but what if there’s a richer, deeper way to engage with scripture?

#2 Why Hearing Scripture Matters

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of the Innovate for Good Podcast, we’re talking with Dr. D. Brent Sandy, a professor and author who believes hearing scripture orally can be transformative. Dr. Sandy explains the importance of returning to the ancient practice of oral communication and reveals what we may miss if we only read the Bible. Whether you’re a pastor, a student, or someone looking to deepen your faith, this conversation uncovers fresh strategies for engaging with scripture in powerful, innovative ways.

---

In this Episode:

• How oral scripture can deepen your spiritual engagement

• What we miss when we only read the Bible

• Why oral traditions bring scripture to life in powerful new ways

• The cultural and historical significance of hearing scripture

• Practical strategies for incorporating oral scripture in daily practice

• How oral scripture can transform church services and personal study

• The role of emotional content in understanding biblical texts

• About the Guest

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy is a professor, author, and biblical scholar with decades of experience teaching Greek and Bible at institutions like Grace College and Wheaton College. He has authored seven books and is widely respected for his expertise in the cultural and historical contexts of scripture. Dr. Sandy’s work emphasizes the power of oral traditions in biblical interpretation, and he is passionate about helping people engage with the Bible in fresh, transformative ways. His latest book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord: What We Miss If We Only Read the Bible, explores the significance of hearing scripture and its impact on personal and communal faith.

• Episode Transcript

  Carly Fortosis: Welcome back to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective. This is a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carly Fortosis, and I’m here with my coworker and fellow One Collective Serving Coach, Mark Fasshager. Today we have a pretty special guest joining us—actually, a friend and contact of one of our own field leaders with One Collective. We’re joined by Dr. D. Brent Sandy. Brent has taught Greek and Bible as a professor at both Grace College and Wheaton College over the years, and he’s authored seven books. We’re thrilled that you could make the time to chat with us today, so thank you, Brent.

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: This is fantastic. I’m glad for the opportunity.

  Carly Fortosis: Awesome. Well, welcome!

  Mark Fasshager: Great to have you with us! We’d love to hear a bit about your background.

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Okay. I’ll start back when I was 10 years old. That’s when a major change occurred in my life and the life of my family. I was fortunate to be raised in a Christian family. My father had an excavating and grading business—bulldozers, dump trucks, backhoes, that kind of stuff. He was one to push me to do things I didn’t think I was quite ready for, like even driving his bulldozers sometimes. But when I was 10, my father was 36, and he sold the business. He decided he wanted to go to a Christian college, go to seminary, and become a pastor. So, we left Pennsylvania where we lived and moved out here to Indiana to go to Grace College. That was such an impact on me, leaving behind a big brick home and moving into a cement block house that we built ourselves—really scraping by with little income. So, I started college and seminary at Grace College at 36. Greek was my first class. About the same time, ministry emphasized something called full-time Christian service. Seeing what my father was up to, being challenged by the Holy Spirit, I decided to go into full-time Christian service as well. This led me to become a primarily Christian teacher, though I did serve as a pastor for seven years.

  Mark Fasshager: Wow, that’s incredible. Where were you a pastor?

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: In Roanoke, Virginia. I also taught at some other places in addition to Grace and Wheaton. I was an adjunct professor at a college in Roanoke while I was pastoring there, which was kind of between some of my teaching opportunities.

  Carly Fortosis: That’s great. So, you clearly have this passion for helping people understand the Bible. What moved you in that direction? Was there something that triggered that passion?

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: That’s a good question. I’m not totally sure, but part of it was seeing people misinterpret scripture. That really troubled me. We don’t want to get God’s word wrong. I decided to major in Greek in college, and over time, I realized that I knew the words in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, but didn’t know much about the culture. The culture really helps tell us what the words mean. So, I saw a lack in that area, and it’s been my emphasis ever since—how to understand scripture in light of its original culture.

  Mark Fasshager: That makes a lot of sense. So, in your most recent book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord, you focus on the importance of hearing scripture orally rather than just reading it. Can you tell us more about that?

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Yes, so I’m very interested in cultural backgrounds. We often push our modern culture onto scripture rather than letting the culture of scripture shape our understanding. It’s easy to do that, but people in ancient times didn’t have the option of reading scripture. They heard it. They experienced it as a dramatic performance, not just words on a page. So, when Paul told Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of scripture, I believe he meant it to be dynamic, dramatic, and powerful. Today, in many churches, we just read the Bible without much thought or preparation, and it doesn’t have the same impact. We need to let God’s word speak powerfully in our lives, and one way to do that is through hearing it presented effectively.

  Mark Fasshager: I love that idea. I’ve never really thought of it that way.

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: It’s definitely something I feel needs more attention. I’m trying to make this accessible to ordinary people, not just scholars. Scholars have been noting how oral scripture was, but it’s not filtering down into churches in a meaningful way. So, I wanted to write a book that could impact regular believers and help them understand the power of oral scripture.

  Carly Fortosis: That’s fascinating! In your book, you mention how oral communication can actually bring scripture to life in a way that reading alone doesn’t. Can you expand on that?

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Yes, oral communication brings out the emotional content of scripture. When we read scripture, we focus on words on a page. But when we hear it, we can be impacted by tone, rhythm, and emotion. The spoken word has power, and when we engage with it in a more dynamic way, it becomes more alive and relevant. For example, when I present scripture to a group, I encourage them to think about how to present it so it speaks powerfully to a congregation. It’s a transformative process because they meditate on the passage and figure out how to emphasize its key points and emotions.

  Mark Fasshager: That sounds amazing. It reminds me of discovery Bible studies, where people retell and reflect on scripture in a group. It’s not just about reading; it’s about interacting with the text in a way that makes it meaningful and personal.

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Exactly! That’s why oral scripture telling is so powerful. It’s not just about passing on information—it’s about making scripture come alive in a way that speaks to people’s hearts and minds. This can really change how people experience and understand the Bible.

  Carly Fortosis: Where can people learn more about this topic or read your book?

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Hear Ye the Word of the Lord is available wherever books are sold. I also recommend The Return of Oral Hermeneutics by Tom Stefan, which dives into the concept of interpreting the Bible orally. And there’s Devote Yourself to Public Reading of Scripture, which is especially helpful for churches.

  Mark Fasshager: Great recommendations. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today, Brent.

  Carly Fortosis: Yes, thank you! It’s been such a fascinating conversation, and we appreciate the time you’ve given us.

  Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Thank you both! It’s been a pleasure.

  Carly Fortosis: And to our listeners, don’t forget to check out Brent’s book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord, and explore how oral scripture can deepen your spiritual engagement. Thanks for tuning in to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective.

• Links & References

  • Hear Ye the Word of the Lord: What We Miss If We Only Read the Bible by Dr. D. Brent Sandy

  • The Return of Oral Hermeneutics by Tom Steffen

  • Dwell App

  • The Spoken English New Testament

More Episodes from One Collective

#1 Integrating Faith in Your Daily Work - Michael Sherr

Episode 1 | 45 Minutes | Oct 29, 2024

What does it look like when faith informs not just beliefs but the way someone teaches, counsels, and leads? 

#1 Dr. Michael Sherr: Integrating Faith in Your Daily Work

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode of Innovate for Good, Dr. Michael Sherr, Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University, shares how his faith shapes his approach to teaching, counseling, and leading. You’ll gain practical insights on bringing your whole self to work, navigating challenges with resilience, and staying grounded in purpose and faith. Whether you’re in healthcare, education, or any helping profession, Dr. Sherr’s story offers down-to-earth advice on integrating faith with work in a way that’s authentic, impactful, and deeply fulfilling.

---

In this Episode You’ll Learn:

• Practical ways to integrate faith authentically into your work, regardless of your profession.

• How to bring your whole self to work and navigate challenges with resilience and purpose.

• The unique role of faith in professions that serve others, like healthcare and education.

• Dr. Sherr’s personal strategies for staying grounded and fulfilled amidst career demands.

• How a faith-centered approach can enhance your impact on those you serve.

• About the Guest

  Dr. Michael Sherr is the Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University, where he brings decades of experience in social work, research, and education. A Jewish believer who came to faith in Jesus as a young adult, Dr. Sherr’s journey informs his work as an educator and mentor. He has authored over 80 publications, including four books, with his fifth, Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare, releasing soon. As the editor-in-chief of two scholarly journals, Dr. Sherr is passionate about guiding the next generation of social workers and healthcare professionals to integrate faith with practice in a way that is both authentic and impactful.

• Episode Transcript

  Carly Fortosis: Welcome to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective. This is a podcast where we chat with educators who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carly Fortosis, and I’m here with my coworker and fellow One Collective serving coach, Mark Fasshager. Today, we are joined by Dr. Michael Sherr.

  Mark Fasshager: Dr. Sherr serves as Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University in Ohio. He’s also the editor-in-chief of two scholarly journals, The Journal of Human Behavior in the Social Environment and Home Healthcare Services Quarterly. Dr. Sherr has 80 publications, including four books, with a fifth releasing early next year titled Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare. It’s a big part of his story. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Sherr.

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me.

  Carly Fortosis: As Mark mentioned, you come from a Jewish background, and you’ve shared with us that it was quite conservative. Can you talk about how that influenced you, especially in your journey to embrace Jesus?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Sure. When we talk about “conservative” in the Jewish world, it can mean something different from how Christians or Protestants interpret it. Generally, there are three broad categories in American Judaism. Reform Judaism is more liberal and progressive, with female rabbis, for instance. Conservative Judaism sits between Reform and Orthodox; Orthodox is the most traditional, where men and women don’t sit together, and women wear head coverings.

  I grew up in a large, patriarchal Jewish family that immigrated from Germany and Austria. I went to Hebrew school for ten years on Long Island, New York. I wasn’t a great student and got into a lot of trouble. In Hebrew school, they separated us into groups: one for those who were expected to become rabbis and another for those who might go into more common professions. I was in the back of that second class, always causing problems, questioning everything.

  Fast forward—I married young at 19 to a woman who was a believer in Jesus Christ. Coming from a family with a lot of strife and inner conflict, I saw something different in her family. They didn’t have much financially, but they had peace and joy. She didn’t “Bible thump,” but I could see her faith in action. When my mother became ill and later passed away, it raised big questions for me. I wondered, “Is God real?” She bought me my first Bible, and I began reading it every day. That’s been my anchor.

  Mark Fasshager: Coming to faith in Jesus sounds like it required a conscious rejection of your upbringing. Did you feel that way?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, it did. I believe God makes the first move in drawing us to Him. For me, it’s a constant reflection: Is my faith real? If it is, it must take preeminence in my life, as Colossians 1 says. That affects everything I do. Even when I preach or interact with colleagues, I want to know if it’s real for them, too, or just a religious practice. That cost me many relationships early on. Embracing Jesus was not only about freedom in grace but also about giving up everything for truth.

  Carly Fortosis: I love how you talk about “is it real?” You wrote about this in your book on becoming a Christian educator in social work, and it struck me. Can you tell us more about that?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Sure. I was finishing my PhD at the University of South Carolina, and I had a lot of pride. I knew I was good at research, writing, and statistical analysis. I helped students finish their PhDs. I was at a conference facilitating a discussion with professors about faith and learning, and an undergraduate student in the room started crying. She shared that a classmate had recently died, and her professors hadn’t taken time to grieve with the students, simply referring them to the chapel.

  Hearing her story humbled me. Here I was, new to the Christian world, realizing that even those raised in the church could miss the mark. I didn’t want to spend my life as a professor thinking I was a good Christian educator only to be seen as disconnected. That moment launched me into five years of research on integrating faith and learning in the classroom.

  Mark Fasshager: So, that moment sparked a whole research project?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, five years of research. When I began at Baylor University, I received a grant to study whether faculty were following Wesleyan principles. I wanted to develop a tool for faculty to assess their development as Christian educators. But there was concern at the university that this tool could be used to evaluate faculty performance, infringing on academic freedom. Ultimately, I chose not to pursue the study in that way, but I wrote a book on it instead.

  Carly Fortosis: That’s impressive. The level of commitment you bring to this is unique. It’s easy to fall into comfort in academia, yet you push for more.

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Academia, even in Christian universities, often incentivizes self-promotion. There’s pressure to publish and build a reputation, which can become an idol. For me, my focus is integrating faith into every facet of life—not just checking boxes. When students see authenticity in faculty, it leaves an impact.

  Mark Fasshager: I’m curious—how do you integrate faith with your students practically?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Integration happens naturally. I bring my walk with God into the classroom authentically, not as a “Sunday best.” There are assignments in some classes where students open scripture and think through issues, but it’s not just an academic exercise. My own approach is organic; I spend time in God’s word not because of obligation but because it grounds me. I want my students to experience that as well, especially if they’ve grown up with scripture as just another area of study.

  Carly Fortosis: I relate to that—breaking free from the sense of obligation to read the Bible. Experiencing a genuine thirst for scripture has changed everything for me.

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, absolutely. In Judaism, there’s a prayer for everything. You’re always following rules. Why would I put myself under that when I’m living under grace? There’s freedom in that, and it’s transformative.

  Mark Fasshager: Let’s talk about your upcoming book, Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare. You ask if it makes a difference if healthcare providers are Christian. Why does that matter?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: That’s a central question in the book. Healthcare professionals deal with life-and-death situations daily. Should it matter if a person taking your blood is a Christian? Yes, because they represent God’s grace in those moments. Healthcare workers remind people of their mortality, often serving as “deacons of society.” They may be the closest encounter some people have with Christ. So, yes, faith matters in those interactions.

  Carly Fortosis: What is the purpose of the Christian healthcare worker, according to scripture?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: To point everyone toward eternal glory and provide evidence that God is real. In practical terms, scripture teaches behaviors like comforting others, offering forgiveness, and enduring challenges daily as vessels of God’s light. That’s how we show up every day without burning out.

  Mark Fasshager: Would you say this applies beyond healthcare to other Christian helpers in the world?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Absolutely. These principles apply to all Christians, but healthcare professionals are on the frontlines. They see people’s deepest pain and struggle. It’s why a strong, authentic relationship with God is essential—it can’t be shallow when you’re on the frontlines.

  Carly Fortosis: What practical strategies do you suggest for staying grounded in faith?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Nothing groundbreaking, but essential. Commit to ongoing training—both professionally and spiritually. Be active in prayer. I encourage my clients to pray regularly, truly connecting with God. Also, maintain perspective—our job is to abide, not strive. When overwhelmed, remember it’s God’s work, not ours. And rest—take breaks, and surround yourself with fellow believers who can speak truth into your life.

  Mark Fasshager: Your advice resonates deeply. A strong faith community can make a huge difference.

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Absolutely. My men’s discipleship group is a lifeline. We hold each other accountable, grounded in the truth. Christian fellowship, mission work, and balancing work with rest are all crucial.

  Carly Fortosis: Thank you so much, Dr. Sherr. Can you tell us when your book will be released?

  Dr. Michael Sherr: It’s expected in January 2025, so just a few months away. Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare will be available where books are sold.

  Mark Fasshager: We’re grateful for your time and insights, Dr. Sherr. Your work and commitment to integrating faith with education are inspiring.

  Dr. Michael Sherr: Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what God has done in my life and what He’s capable of doing in anyone’s life. All for His glory.

  Carly Fortosis: Thank you again, Dr. Sherr!

• Links & References

  1. Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare by Dr. Michael Sherr (Coming January 2025)

  2. Contact Dr. Michael Sherr

  3. Journal of Human Behavior in the Social Environment

  4. Book Recommendation: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero

More Episodes from One Collective

Innovate for Good Trailer

Trailer | 1 Minutes | Oct 24, 2024

Innovate for Good brings together professors and seasoned leaders in insightful discussions that bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry around the world.

Innovate for Good Trailer

One Collective

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

Together, we're exploring innovative strategies and fresh perspectives on global challenges, equipping you with the knowledge and tools to make a real difference. Join us to explore how you can play a role in driving meaningful, sustainable change.

---

More Episodes from One Collective