#7 Teaching with Compassion - Becky Doane
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 7 | 37 Minutes | Jan 14, 2025
Ever been in a situation where you felt like the odds were stacked against you? Whether you’re figuring out your future, facing personal struggles, or navigating complicated relationships, it can be hard to see a way through.
In this episode, Becky Doane, social work professor and program director at Cornerstone University, shares how the strengths perspective—a mindset shift that focuses on what’s already working—can help you find a way forward. Becky offers practical advice for applying this perspective to real-life situations, from tough family dynamics to choosing a career path. Whether you’re a student or young professional, you’ll walk away with fresh tools and renewed hope for tackling life’s challenges.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
Becky’s journey from fieldwork to teaching social work
How the strengths perspective empowers individuals and communitiesPractical steps to identify and apply personal strengths
The importance of empathy and understanding in conflict resolution
Navigating challenging family dynamics with healthy boundaries
Preparing social work students for real-world situations
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Becky Doane is a professor and the social work program director at Cornerstone University in Grand Rapids, Michigan. With years of experience in foster care, child welfare, and clinical mental health practice as a DBT clinician, Becky transitioned into teaching during the pandemic. Passionate about preparing future social workers, Becky is known for her compassionate teaching style and her commitment to equipping students with the tools to serve their communities effectively. She holds a Bachelor’s in Social Work from Grace College and an MSW from Grand Valley State University.
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📍 Today we have a special guest joining us, a real friend of One Collectives.
Uh, we're joined by Dr. Mike Sevier. Mike is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. He directs the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. Mike has served as a pastor, has written numerous articles and books, and has a forthcoming book that we'll talk about today. He is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders in the church. And he has a very special interest in reaching people with disabilities. Mike, you have brought numerous Taylor students to One Collective's headquarters for their senior capstone project. And we've also had the privilege of presenting in classes of yours at Taylor.
So we're pretty excited to have you here and thank you for making the time to chat with us today.
So glad to be here, Carly and Mark. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we've been enjoying the partnership between, uh, Taylor and One Collective for many years.
really great to have you here, Mike. would love if you could tell us a little bit about your early years, because I think they were quite influential in shaping kind of some of the things that are important to you today. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah,
at risk, urban people on the margins for as long as I can remember. And I think that really does come from my childhood. My father, abandoned our family, in a way when he was thrown in federal prison as a, he stole a plane and, crossed state boundaries, which is very illegal and ended up, then escaping prison and came and Looked for us.
And so there was periods of my childhood where I realized what it was like to hide or run or to be in those sort of situations. And that gave me a heart for those who maybe weren't safe. Those who were on the margins. Those didn't have access to resources. I was raised for a period of time by single mother, but then my mom remarried later on in my late elementary age and That man adopted me, and so adoption became part of my story, and that man I now call my father, when I married, my wife and I said, we want to do foster care and care for kids, who, don't have homes and, uh, will never maybe find a permanent family.
Maybe we could do that. And so, alongside my work in urban youth ministry and so forth as a youth pastor we were starting to do foster care and care for Children in our own home. And so it was this ministry in the home and ministry in the church to different groups, but all very much on the outskirts of maybe typical ministry or sort of the what we would see is the norm.
Was there like a moment where something clicked for you and this focus, this passion that you have today for reaching people, youth on the margins, disabled people? Was there a moment where that kind of I need to do something about this. Was there a moment like that or how did that develop?
Yeah, there's a couple of moments, certainly a progression of moments, where I was called into ministry and, and had, my eyes awakened to different kinds of needs. I've done a lot of work with foster care, abused children, urban kids. And I remember one girl who was telling me about an injury and I asked her about it.
She was a middle school girl in my downtown Portland, church. And, And, the way she described her injury and how it happened seemed impossible to me, and she was very vague and elusive about it. And then I started wondering what was really going on. And at the same time, I had another, young man, we'll call him Brody, and he would come and help set up for youth group.
And, he said he had left his route to come help me that day. And I was probably thinking paper route at that moment, but as our relationship developed and he attended youth group and helped me set up chairs and games and food. I realized that he was not a paper boy, he was delivering other things.
And what I realized that a simple donut and picking a kid up and bring him to sunday school. Changed his world in ways that he would describe to me as amazing. He had never had that kind of attention from an adult. And, here's a kid who has more money than me literally as an urban youth pastor, cause he's dealing and, and, but simply buying him a donut and driving him somewhere and spending time with him was transformational. And so just having my eyes open to the great needs. And what little things, just simply asking the right questions or being willing to spend time or buy a donut, and care can bring people, that normally have no interaction with the church, back in, into the connection with the church and then Christ, of course.
Those
people probably don't have many adults who are pouring into them just simply, because of who they are and to know them better and to love them. So I think that obviously would stand out as something different.
Yeah.
And of course, as you do foster care or work with at risk populations, there's a higher incident of mental health and medical trauma. Foster care, is more common in some demographics than others and so forth. So that also made me aware. And my second youth ministry, I had, middle school group that was about 25 teenagers in two grades, seventh and eighth.
And I had three autistic Children in that group, a varying abilities. But that population, that number was not statistically significant, right? It was beyond statistically significant. And so I asked, what, what's going on? Is there something in the water here? And what I realized is that we'd become a place where children like that could engage that they could get to physically or emotionally and join the group.
And, and so They started coming and, and it was just simply, if you build it, it will come type of, they will come and, and they showed up because we had, a welcoming environment environment that could take care of them, that we knew their struggles and, and suddenly we saw many children, from, families that were at risk or had disabilities showing up to my youth group, because we were just simply taking small, very minor steps to, uh, make it possible for them to participate.
What was the pathway to you becoming a professor, as, I know you started out in hands on ministry in the church, so how did that, how did that evolve into where you are now?
Yeah, that's a great question, Carly. I think, I've always been, interested in ideas, and asking questions. And I have a natural curiosity there. And, and I liked impressing adults. So that was maybe a strength and a weakness, right? Two sides of a coin, dark side. And I was always, I'm trying to impress the adults and those adults were often teachers.
So that, that's just something, like getting approval from adults. We'll get good grades, okay. So. So there's that to professors often had good grades, in school. So it doesn't, not surprisingly. However, I think also, as I was early on in my schooling, I was young twenties, very young twenties.
I was a brand new youth pastor. I was hanging out with a variety of other youth pastors from, age 20 to 50 in Portland, urban Portland. And we were networking. And, what I realized is that I was getting content, ideas, information, books, resources, people, networking opportunities, all those kinds of things that, everyone in my network didn't necessarily have access to.
Most of the people in my network were far more experienced. had maybe larger churches, more resources, and so forth, but would often start turning to me because, they didn't have the connection to certain types of ideas, certain types of people, certain types of books, and I could say, oh, I could refer something to you, or you need to talk to this person, which is what a network is supposed to do, right?
But, I started gaining an, a passion for then, how do we resource youth pastors to get the things they need in their hands so that they can be more effective in these areas of ministry, where maybe they haven't been able to take classes or have mentors and, they've had to figure out, reinvent the wheel, et cetera, inside, doing it, they're trying to figure it out 20 minutes before the horde of middle schoolers show up for, a youth group, right?
Which is not the best time to figure things out by the way. So at that point, I started taking, notes, in my classes as I was studying ministry, theology, Bible, discipleship, evangelism, and not just for my own ministry, but actually what would I, what am I noting about the way the professor shares how they communicate and train me?
And so I would note their techniques, the, the teaching you. Tips that they were doing and giving to me by modeling them, as well as the content and information that I needed for my own ministry. And then, yeah, it just progressed. So I just stayed in school for a decade, or so, and, and I kept doing full time youth ministry while, doing school part time and sometimes full time.
And, and eventually started taking on adjunct classes. And then, there was periods where I was teaching what I was doing. Taking classes on about what I was doing while also doing it full time. So I don't necessarily recommend all that at once. But, I think there's a synergy, of course, in what we call the praxis, theory and practice put together the theory informs the practice.
And then I go back and say, Hey, it didn't work like you said it did. I tried it, and, and then likewise, when I'm doing something, I can say, Oh, how does the theory inform this better? How does my learning about this help me understand the theory better? And there's that cycle of going deeper and deeper into it.
And, and I think that's super important and helpful when, studying and practicing, we can't divorce the two, we can't separate them out. We have to put them together. So that's always been my passion. So I've always wanted to resource people in the church to mobilize them to reach teenagers and of course, the whole culture.
And how do we equip and mobilize others? Has been my sort of question and passion. And so now I see a need now, especially in the area of foster care, trauma, disability, and especially in youth ministry in the local church and so forth. And so we're trying to lean into that because I think the church is ready to hear this and there is a great need.
And, I want to equip the church with resources where they can, follow God's heart in this area.
Yeah. You've, you've got a book coming out, um, soon, I believe, and the working title is Youth Ministry on the Margins. Who is on the margins? Mike, I think you've been talking about it here a little bit. Tell us who's on the margins as you survey the landscape of demographics, and you're aware of people out there.
Who is that for you?
Yeah, that's an important question, Mark. And of course, the margins, the lines, evolve based on who's making them, what theology they have. We tend to draw lines all the time. We tend to make lists all the time. And, one of the things I love about Jesus's teaching, especially, especially the, The, the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep and the lost brother, where he's basically saying, we need to get rid of our lists here of who is in and who is out.
And, and we need to be going after all of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost brothers and because that aligns with the heart of God. Now, of course, we can't go after everything, every moment, right? So for this, for this purpose in this book, Youth Ministry on the Margins, we're focusing on sort of three specific things that I've found in both my personal experience with foster care and youth ministry.
And of course, in the research that pretty typically overlap. And so disability, is one of those things, in an area where the church is, I think, again, as I said, becoming really aware of the need. And, and yeah. People with disabilities, whether physical or mental health disabilities, constitute in each of those groups about 20 percent of the population. So we can just say basically, and sometimes they have both mental and physical disability. And so if we just simply look at that number alone, 20 percent for either one of those groups, that's 20 percent of those people who are actually not getting to church. We know very clearly that people with physical or mental health issues do not engage the church and actually no one in their family engages the church as well.
So think of 20 percent of the population and everyone in their immediate circle never going to church because they for various reasons. physical or health reasons, can't, and then when you look at, groups like foster care and so forth, often they have neglect or abuse, which can create traumas.
They can create mental disabilities. They can get physical disabilities through the abuse. And sometimes those are temporary, and sometimes not. But, often kids at risk and those types of foster care environments move into the margins, away from the normal resources, and, and relationships that children need to thrive.
And, of course, it also removes them from access to the church, for various reasons, like if they're in a wheelchair and they can't get into the youth room, they can't go to youth groups. Those kinds of things. And we need to be thinking about those who, just broadly defining margins, those who are on the margins of society, those who don't have access, those we are not paying attention to.
And those that those are people that God deeply cares for and favors. He talks about orphans and widows, right? And and that's not. Everyone in that group, but it's a, a scriptural device called an inclusio, right? Which is the bookends, the A to Z, it's orphans and widows and everyone in between who we have ignored or shuffled off to the side or rejected in some way.
God is very clear that he does not reject them. And, and we need to be welcoming and going to, and bringing those people, not just to serve them, but to be part of the church. Otherwise the church is impoverished. We don't have the gifts that they, are given by the spirit. They're not, leading with us.
We don't have those perspectives and understandings that they would bring and enrich the church with. And so we're all impoverished by that. If we ignore the margins and stay in our comfortable status quo, et
You mentioned, 20 percent of the population that feels pretty vast. I'm recalling a quote from the book, The Body Keeps the Score, book on trauma. And it says that for every returning war vet with severe PTSD, there are 10 children for whom their home is a war zone.
Think of a statement like that, and I think of your 20%, it feels overwhelming. Is there something to that, to, to what I'm saying here, that it is really a massive problem?
yeah, I phrase it like this. We normally talk about the, the 10 40 window being the unreached people groups of the world. If my stats are right, and, and I do believe they are, and they are worldwide. That means that there's 20 percent of the population of the planet that has a diagnosable disability or mental illness.
And that we also know, at a very high degree, 90 plus percent, they don't engage with the church in any way. If that's true, they are the largest unreached people group on the planet, period. So when we begin to note that, then we can start to say what changes in our theology need to happen. What changes in our practice and strategy, or maybe even just simple things in our buildings, like wheelchair ramps and becoming ADA compliant and so forth. Maybe we train our youth staff and children's ministry staff on trauma.
So it's not just a kid that has behavior issues, but how do we understand what's underlying those behaviors? And the behaviors are very real and often very difficult. But if we can understand the trauma or the disability, then often we can, work in much more effective ways to support the child.
And, bring them into the community, support the family so that they can also be part of the community, even, and think of their siblings that are also outside of the church because of great needs of maybe another sibling, right? So that often happens when you have a child that has a, a disability or a mental illness or something along those lines.
The siblings, who may be neurotypical, as we might call it, more in the middle of our expectations, if that's true. Right or not. They, they often are called glass children because they are ignored by the system. All the resources and time and effort are being poured into siblings, who have, a difficult need.
The other siblings are often left out and they don't have access to, often educational support structures, tutoring, sports, and of course the church. They're, they're simply part of a system that's all turned inward on the great need of a person in their side, their family. And, and the family is often suffering and trying to do that all alone.
And the church, is, has been broadly unaware of those
Yeah. That makes me wonder, how aware is the church of these needs, both, here in America and globally, and how is the church becoming aware of these needs?
Yeah, that's a great question. I can't give a definitive answer on that, of course, but what I can tell you, I'm very encouraged by a number of theologians who are writing very specifically on this area about disability and leadership in the church and spiritual gifts in the church about how, how we have, maybe not read carefully the Old Testament about, examples of, and the way God interacts with this specific group of people and cares for the margins and how to bring them in.
And so I think as we do theological work, it will change, the way we do and practice ministry and strategy and so forth for, for discipleship and evangelism. Just, for example, we often think something like the Imago Dei is when I reflect God properly, or when I look like Jesus, then I'm properly being in the image of God.
But if we take that stance, there's some problems there that when I'm, Not reflecting God, by my standards or my definition from external, not from God's definition, but from like our social definitions, we often then say, if this person's not producing or proper in some way, then, then they're not in the image or fully in the image.
And we can begin to dehumanize people or cast them off to the side. And I think that's the real, the real problem with the margin. It's not just that we didn't notice them. And oh, now we need to do something about it. It's actually really at Beth, at base, a theological issue where we have drawn lines that don't include everyone.
And, until we redraw those lines with, God's definitions in mind, we're imposing. These false boundaries and placing people on the margins of society and therefore out of the church and out of access to All of the community that is so needed to be healthy And so I think that's a theological turn that's beginning to happen lots of writing and thinking happening about that And of course, we're also seeing a movement in In children's ministry, especially about practical issues of, of being sensitive to sensitivity issues, like for children who have autism and maybe certain fans or lights or colors or textures are not helpful.
And we know this, maybe, we need sensory rooms. And a lot of churches are turning to the education world and maybe even hiring, those who specialize, in, neurodiversity in an educational setting like a public school and bringing them in as consultants or even as children's pastors in the church.
Of course, the typical church or the typical mission or parachurch ministry can't hire maybe somebody who is a special education director for their church. Maybe they don't even have a children's pastor, let alone someone specializing in that area. So we probably just need to become also very practical about how we train and equip and think about this.
And that's one thing, our work is trying to do, how do we think about our theology and also, we don't need a million dollar budget to rethink our strategy to reach people on the margins. But there are some things we probably need to change. Like maybe handrails, things like that.
And isn't there, yes there is, like a sociological, Emotional Intelligence, component to this, some people tend to be Even in many churches, they tend to be judgmental, or they have strong opinions about, oh, look at this child, how are they behaving, what's wrong with them, rather than moving toward becoming more curious as people, instead of asking, what's wrong, what's wrong with them, asking maybe, what happened to him, or what's going on in this person that I can understand better, a shift in, What we are like as people from being a little more, a little less judgmental or critical and more, Hey, I'm really curious about that.
And then adding to that compassion, when you have curiosity and compassion, it's a powerful mix. I think Yeah.
was two children. We were in Appalachia, and it was a very difficult neighborhood, a three county area, actually. And, Georgia, in the legislator had passed a rule, that, any, caseworker that wasn't visiting their children on a monthly basis could be legally liable or criminally prosecutable.
And and of course it's good for social workers to see their children at least every 30 days. The problem was the system was so over full and overloaded and there weren't enough social workers to see the children that they currently had in the system. They just stopped pulling children from homes. And then they tried to find other ways to deal with the situations in the home, without making themselves criminally negligent in their jobs. . We moved in, did the training, waited and then we were placed with some children. What I didn't know at the time was that it was the only children that had been removed in a three county area in about five months.
And it was such a disastrous and difficult and, abuse, laden case, that they would only show up with two police officers at the home to visit the family because they were, physically at threat. They moved the children out of the county. We never met or saw the parents, we would have to, take different routes home to go drop them off at the center where they would do visits, and then they would move the kids to it.
That kind of stuff like we're playing cat and mouse to protect the children, but we brought, we brought these kids home and, The girl was five and she was wearing shorts and a tank top and had one flip flop. That was it. That's all we had. And we found out that the shorts were actually two t pants made for an 18 month old.
And no underwear, no nothing. And the two year old boy, her younger brother, couldn't walk or talk. And we went to Walmart, bought him some stuff and found out that she would grab things and try to eat them, tear them apart with her teeth. She would chew up her bedding on a nightly basis, had never slept in a bed and so forth.
And, we entered, quite literally a very difficult time. That was the worst in our lives. I slept in, I slept at the foot of her doorway, for about, Three weeks. She offered herself to me sexually, for example. So we're trying to carefully navigate this really difficult situation.
And, and it was beyond our capability. We went to church, locally and we were relatively new to the community and we called the church and we say, we have this situation. I don't think you guys can handle this. And they said, let's look into it. And they said, no, you need to come. And so a couple of weeks into the placement, we show up at church and a lady met us.
She was, in her mid forties. She says, I've been a special education teacher and consultant for 15 years. And she took, our little foster girls, five year old hand and looked us in the eyes and said, everything will be all right. Meet me back here in two hours. And, and she became a buddy for our little girl and walked off with her and we went and cried for an entire hour because we were just so relieved.
And then we went to church and sat in church and were able to engage with other adults for the first time in many weeks. , and we're just so thankful that the church had stepped up. Okay, so that's the good part of the story. The bad part of the story is, the children's, got out and we went and picked her up and, we had other kids with us as well, some we adopted and they were doing little laps around the pews in the church while some other people from our new small group were buying pizza and they were going to take us and our kids, foster kids to the park and we were going to play and everybody was going to watch this one little girl to make sure she was safe and, and all those types of things.
But they were doing little laps like a racetrack around the pew. And my wife and I were standing at one end corralling them while the pizza was being bought. The lights are turning off and all this kind of stuff. And the pastor came up to us. And he said, Hey, get those kids out of here.
This is the sanctuary of the Lord.
Yeah.
And,
Yeah.
maybe that wasn't the best place to play with the children, but we were a little bit at wit's end and we didn't know what to do. And I think, at, in evidence, there are two very different theologies. One is, let me take your hand. We will come alongside you and provide, and provide community and resource, for this, very difficult situation.
And this very difficult child, she was very difficult. And then on the other side, where the room became more important than a foster child who had never been to church in her life, and was there for the first time and we were asked to leave because, they were giggling. And I think that just exemplifies we need to change in theology and we also need to be places that can step up.
It doesn't, that church did not have a sensory room or paid staff, but they were able to accommodate us and allow us to actually go to church as foster parents. And I think if we can become places like that and move away from a theology that sort of. Lands on, the secondary or tertiary issues and focuses on the IMAGO day in all people, then we're going to be at a much better place of able to minister to people and allow them to minister to us too.
Even shifting from a concept of God being remote and harsh and austere and, All of the appropriate detailed behavior is what's most important or you get slapped versus a tender loving father and Jesus who is there and welcomes the children.
Even if the pastor had, gone down on his knee, asked the kids their names, met them and then said, Hey, let me take you to the place where they can run. That, that would have been a whole different approach than, something coming from a, this, really strong theological bent towards buildings over people.
Mike, what kind of resources are you developing, for church leaders and mission leaders, on this journey that you're on that would help us provide more accessible spaces, that are inclusive of disabled populations of those struggling with mental health and their families?
There's a lot of good organizations, doing work in these spaces. Youth for Christ has a work in this area. Johnny and friends has been doing this for decades. There are some manuals and, practical stuff we can learn from schools, thinking about sensory room and specialized training for teachers, integrated, and we have to think through our philosophy.
Are we going to do the buddy system like the woman who came and took our little girl and? Spent time with her and in a group and walked with her through the Sunday school program. Are we going to talk about separate spaces for, people with certain kinds of disabilities or integrate them into the entire program?
So we have to think through our philosophy. I also think we need to just step back and ask the right questions. I have a friend who's working on the book with me, Laura Widstrom from Olivet Nazarene. She teaches youth ministry there as well, like I do here at Taylor. We're working on this project and she talks about calling ahead to churches when she moves or changes communities.
And, often she doesn't get calls back. She's I have a autistic son. He's adopted from the foster system. We have these issues and they're like, okay, we'll talk to the children's pastor and they never reply. And she's okay. So that's sort of a indication that they don't know what to do with this.
Or, they, they can't answer my questions and just don't. But I think it's important to, as ministers to look at your ministry space, starting with the phone. How are we able to respond to families like mine who call and say, I have this foster children with some profound disabilities. How can you help me?
We need to know how to answer that question and how to get them to the right people and so forth. We need to think about our website and what information could be on there. I don't think we need to have entire pages for specific ministries for children with exceptionalities or disabilities. But parents are looking to see if they can get into the building.
Where's the parking, how's the lighting, how's the sensory stuff, and then to maybe actually walk through our buildings and our ministries and see, could a teenager who's in a wheelchair actually get to the youth room or the Sunday school class? And I hear all the time, this comment, when I'm having discussions with youth pastors and I have, I've been there myself.
I don't have anybody with a disability in my youth group. Again, I think if you build it, they will come when we start providing access. I think people will engage with that because it's so desperately needed. And, and when we find ways to make spaces welcoming for different groups. And maybe finding buddies for to walk through specific needs, those kinds of things.
I think we'll find people coming out of the woodwork to engage our ministries. But until we actually walk through our spaces, our bathrooms, the signage, tactile sensory lights type of stuff, and just getting some basic awareness of how this affects, whether it's a child with autism or a kid who's just gone through a traumatic experience, we need to become aware.
And I think that's just, a helpful sort of walk through type of approach. Yeah, and then to have policies and, practices. People who are trained, how we thought through, okay, when somebody shows up, how do we work with a parent? To make sure that they're at the right types of experiences.
And, for example, a child, I had three kids with autism in my youth group at one point in a group of 25, they didn't participate in every game. Some of them were not appropriate for them. They didn't go to every single message. Some of them weren't developmentally appropriate for their spot.
And so I communicated with and worked with the parents and that child's buddy to make sure that it was, coordinated, so that we're actually working with the parents and the families for the interest of the child's best needs because the parents know better than anybody what the child actually needs.
And if we're not incorporating them into our ministry, then we're probably missing the boat. A lot of times, you know, we just want parents to drop off their kids and then we do ministry at them
Yeah,
instead of with the child and with the family and incorporate the family's needs and understandings for their own child for the best possible
effect.
it's a challenging hill we're climbing. We have brought our son to church on a few occasions and even if, and when he is able to, experience. And be in a setting that might not be tailored to him, but is not opposed to him either.
There are still like his own social and anxiety issues that make it even more difficult, I think, for this, for many in this population.
And the whole church has to be on board. If you bring in children with sensory issues, they may react to the color of the chair. Are we willing to bring in a different color chair for that child to sit in? And I've been in places that would not allow such things.
And other churches that would have changed every single chair in the room to make it work, um. Yeah, Mark, I think that's absolutely true that we need to be, sensitive. We need to be aware. We need to be asking questions. We need to be seeing it through their, their eyes and, and we need to be willing to be uncomfortable.
If we invite somebody with Tourette's into the worship service, or if they have unsort of controlled, motions, they will disrupt our, status quo, our peaceful service, if you will. And, and we need to be willing to do that if we want to include them in the full life of the body.
Yeah, when we took our son to church once during a quiet moment in worship or the sermon or something, he just speaks out loud something like, Mom, I'm bored. I want to go home. There, there are those dynamics that will be at play.
That happens all the time in youth group normally,
but yeah, in the church service, that's a little different. Yeah.
And children are already disruptive, just by nature. So I think if we want to be inclusive of, the whole body, we need to start getting used to those disruptions, whether they be from a baby or, somebody who might be struggling in the moment or, whoever it is, I think, we need to be more understanding of that.
Hmm. As we were preparing for this call, Mike, Carly and I were saying how we just, we love this conversation because one collective has our missions, our mission is that we bring people together to help the oppressed. People on the margins is the focus of our work around the world.
And even intentionally. We have a few locations that are working directly with people with disabilities and mental disabilities, physical disabilities, and our, our leaders, more and more, they are exploring ways that they can engage this part of the population.
And of course, disability isn't the only margin, but I think it's a margin that we're beginning to be aware of. And, and the resources I think will be able to transform our, ability to, Welcome and make them a part of, and then let them bless us. And it's not a matter of doing ministry to, but doing ministry with, and I think that's another perspective change, that everyone in the family, I've got everyone in the church has a gift, a spiritual gift given by the spirit.
And, that includes people with exceptionalities and disabilities that includes all ages, right? It includes those on the margins or those in the center. However we want to make, those boundaries, we all have gifts. And, uh, when someone is not allowed to give their gift to the church. Church. We understand that creates disunity and immaturity and division.
We've got a problem if we're not welcoming the gifts, across all peoples that, are part of the body.
What would you, uh, say to students as they're contemplating their future and they may be wrestling with, this, they may be, just becoming aware of this need in the world and considering whether to make it a part of their future. Yeah. What advice would you give to students?
Yeah, I love working with young adults, teenagers. That's been my whole life. My, my majority of work right now is, late teens, young adults, training them for ministry and it's so fun to help them find, not just their gifts, and interests, but a passion. And I really, Tell them when you start to feel something for a group of people, or even a location or a need, that's really your heart aligning with God's heart.
God's already there. God's already at work. Firmly believe that, in a number, theologically speaking, God's already there at work. And, and he's probably drawing you into that. I also want to warn them that you can't, fulfill every need and, address every margin all at once.
And Yeah, and so grow into that passion. It's okay to have a focus. We need different kinds of people and different kinds of ministries to meet the different needs. And I think as a body, as we respond to God's heart for all of these groups and all of these needs, then we all together do the work of God and make the kingdom more evident.
Here on earth. So yeah, I would tell them to lean into it to find the thing that resonates with them, to not worry about the things that they can't do or can't solve right now, but to lean in on that one thing. And so it's, it's really not a matter of just finding a good thing to do, because there's always good things to do.
In fact, there's always great things in the kingdom, but the real thing is to find the thing that you were created for. And, uh, what, what is the one thing, that God is asking of you? And if we settle for good or even great things, we'll probably burn out and we might miss, great joy in our lives and ministry. Because I've had 40 foster children come through my home on temporary basis and like 15 long term people often ask me, you know why I've done that or what's it like and often young people will say I want to do that. I want to warn everyone. I've worked in urban environments, I've dealt with, violence and drugs and, criminality.
I've had police snipers in my junior high room shooting out of the windows, those kinds of environments, really interesting stories. But it was, but that's nothing compared to when I brought it into my home. And I think it's one thing when we hold off at arm's distance, ministry, and we can create a program.
Or keep it within certain timeframes or boundaries. I don't think hospitality allows us to do that. Biblical hospitality really requires us to offer not just tea and crumpets between five and seven at my predetermined location, but to actually Invite someone into my life to the point where, I sacrifice for them.
And then they also have rights and responsibilities back to me. That's just sort of oriental hospitality, right? And that's what Christ offers for us. As a host would, that he sacrifices his life in place of his guests. That is the story of redemption and salvation, right?
That Christ's hospitality was incredibly costly, cost him his life, but in place of ours. And when we enter into these types of spaces, it's one thing to let a teenager who's lost and ran away from their parents, sleep on your floor while the police are coming or something like that, because you found them.
It's a very different thing to invite it into a lifestyle and to move into the neighborhood. But I think those are the places where the light shines the brightest and it's also, deeply difficult. And I don't think everybody needs to, necessarily do foster care or, work, in disability ministry directly.
But if we don't support one another in these things, if we're not praying for, I've had times when foster placement happened or, we had a child with a disability. People didn't mow my lawn or bring me a lasagna. Like it wasn't going to happen. Right. So there's ways to support one another in this without, having to, necessarily, do it all ourselves.
And, and again, it's a body effort, right? If everyone in my local church was doing foster care, my local church would not exist. I, I mean that literally, like we wouldn't survive. But, when some of us do foster care and everyone participates in it, it becomes doable, right? I think that's the way we need to think about ministry to youth on the margins.
If we are simply trying to make a program
Yeah
do it all ourselves, it won't work for various reasons. But when we come together as a body and create an environment, a community, a culture, and be the church, then we can bring people into that. And it won't, it won't, it'll tear us apart in certain ways, but in all the right ways.
I love your insertion of the topic of hospitality Mike it reminds me of henry nowens. He has a number of statements on hospitality and one of them is Hospitality is not an atmosphere we provide where we are trying to change people. It's providing an atmosphere where change can take place. And, it, and it will be messy.
Change is hard and especially perhaps with people with unique struggles, the change could be, expressed in ways that are harder for us. And so I, I, I love. The messiness of hospitality, if you will, but the deep value of it because so much life can take place there.
It's beautiful when we live out being the church and, and understand our calling and, and God continues to grow us in those ways. But again, we've got to be willing to be uncomfortable, right? It's not, hospitality is not on my terms with my boundaries in my spaces. It's really a self sacrificial activity where we offer ourselves, you know,
We totally agree and we can definitely see the investment that you're making in this next generation of leaders. It is significant. So that's very evident. Just in our several years long relationship with you.
So
Yeah, thank you.
Your bio, Mike says that you are committed to providing love, care, opportunities, and safety to the most vulnerable among us. And I just want to say that I see that and we value that. And, may the Lord 📍 bless you as you continue in that trajectory.
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#6 Creating Inclusive Communities: Disability, Foster Care, and the Church
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 6 | 40 Minutes | Jan 7, 2025
Are you wondering how to create a welcoming and inclusive environment in your workplace or community? The challenge of loving and serving people from all walks of life—especially those often overlooked—can feel overwhelming, whether you’re just starting out in your career or stepping into a new leadership role.
In this episode of the Innovate for Good Podcast, Dr. Mike Severe shares his powerful story of ministering to people on the margins, including youth in foster care and those with disabilities. He unpacks practical ways to foster inclusion, compassion, and love, even when resources feel limited or you’re unsure where to start. If you’re ready to lead with a mindset of transformation and hospitality, this episode will inspire and equip you.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
How to build inclusive environments in your workplace or ministry.
Practical ways to love and serve people with disabilities.
Why small acts of kindness can have a big impact on marginalized communities.
How trauma awareness can help you connect with those in need.
The importance of seeing the Imago Dei (Image of God) in everyone you meet.
Lessons on creating spaces of belonging for foster children and their families.
How biblical hospitality can shape your approach to leadership.
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Dr. Mike Severe is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana, where he directs both the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. A former pastor and lifelong advocate, Mike is committed to equipping the next generation of leaders to embrace inclusive and compassionate practices in their careers. His work focuses on supporting youth in foster care, people with disabilities, and others on the margins, challenging leaders to reflect God’s heart in every environment.
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📍 Today we have a special guest joining us, a real friend of One Collectives.
Uh, we're joined by Dr. Mike Sevier. Mike is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. He directs the Christian Ministries program and the Master of Arts in Ministry. Mike has served as a pastor, has written numerous articles and books, and has a forthcoming book that we'll talk about today. He is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders in the church. And he has a very special interest in reaching people with disabilities. Mike, you have brought numerous Taylor students to One Collective's headquarters for their senior capstone project. And we've also had the privilege of presenting in classes of yours at Taylor.
So we're pretty excited to have you here and thank you for making the time to chat with us today.
So glad to be here, Carly and Mark. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we've been enjoying the partnership between, uh, Taylor and One Collective for many years.
really great to have you here, Mike. would love if you could tell us a little bit about your early years, because I think they were quite influential in shaping kind of some of the things that are important to you today. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah,
at risk, urban people on the margins for as long as I can remember. And I think that really does come from my childhood. My father, abandoned our family, in a way when he was thrown in federal prison as a, he stole a plane and, crossed state boundaries, which is very illegal and ended up, then escaping prison and came and Looked for us.
And so there was periods of my childhood where I realized what it was like to hide or run or to be in those sort of situations. And that gave me a heart for those who maybe weren't safe. Those who were on the margins. Those didn't have access to resources. I was raised for a period of time by single mother, but then my mom remarried later on in my late elementary age and That man adopted me, and so adoption became part of my story, and that man I now call my father, when I married, my wife and I said, we want to do foster care and care for kids, who, don't have homes and, uh, will never maybe find a permanent family.
Maybe we could do that. And so, alongside my work in urban youth ministry and so forth as a youth pastor we were starting to do foster care and care for Children in our own home. And so it was this ministry in the home and ministry in the church to different groups, but all very much on the outskirts of maybe typical ministry or sort of the what we would see is the norm.
Was there like a moment where something clicked for you and this focus, this passion that you have today for reaching people, youth on the margins, disabled people? Was there a moment where that kind of I need to do something about this. Was there a moment like that or how did that develop?
Yeah, there's a couple of moments, certainly a progression of moments, where I was called into ministry and, and had, my eyes awakened to different kinds of needs. I've done a lot of work with foster care, abused children, urban kids. And I remember one girl who was telling me about an injury and I asked her about it.
She was a middle school girl in my downtown Portland, church. And, And, the way she described her injury and how it happened seemed impossible to me, and she was very vague and elusive about it. And then I started wondering what was really going on. And at the same time, I had another, young man, we'll call him Brody, and he would come and help set up for youth group.
And, he said he had left his route to come help me that day. And I was probably thinking paper route at that moment, but as our relationship developed and he attended youth group and helped me set up chairs and games and food. I realized that he was not a paper boy, he was delivering other things.
And what I realized that a simple donut and picking a kid up and bring him to sunday school. Changed his world in ways that he would describe to me as amazing. He had never had that kind of attention from an adult. And, here's a kid who has more money than me literally as an urban youth pastor, cause he's dealing and, and, but simply buying him a donut and driving him somewhere and spending time with him was transformational. And so just having my eyes open to the great needs. And what little things, just simply asking the right questions or being willing to spend time or buy a donut, and care can bring people, that normally have no interaction with the church, back in, into the connection with the church and then Christ, of course.
Those
people probably don't have many adults who are pouring into them just simply, because of who they are and to know them better and to love them. So I think that obviously would stand out as something different.
Yeah.
And of course, as you do foster care or work with at risk populations, there's a higher incident of mental health and medical trauma. Foster care, is more common in some demographics than others and so forth. So that also made me aware. And my second youth ministry, I had, middle school group that was about 25 teenagers in two grades, seventh and eighth.
And I had three autistic Children in that group, a varying abilities. But that population, that number was not statistically significant, right? It was beyond statistically significant. And so I asked, what, what's going on? Is there something in the water here? And what I realized is that we'd become a place where children like that could engage that they could get to physically or emotionally and join the group.
And, and so They started coming and, and it was just simply, if you build it, it will come type of, they will come and, and they showed up because we had, a welcoming environment environment that could take care of them, that we knew their struggles and, and suddenly we saw many children, from, families that were at risk or had disabilities showing up to my youth group, because we were just simply taking small, very minor steps to, uh, make it possible for them to participate.
What was the pathway to you becoming a professor, as, I know you started out in hands on ministry in the church, so how did that, how did that evolve into where you are now?
Yeah, that's a great question, Carly. I think, I've always been, interested in ideas, and asking questions. And I have a natural curiosity there. And, and I liked impressing adults. So that was maybe a strength and a weakness, right? Two sides of a coin, dark side. And I was always, I'm trying to impress the adults and those adults were often teachers.
So that, that's just something, like getting approval from adults. We'll get good grades, okay. So. So there's that to professors often had good grades, in school. So it doesn't, not surprisingly. However, I think also, as I was early on in my schooling, I was young twenties, very young twenties.
I was a brand new youth pastor. I was hanging out with a variety of other youth pastors from, age 20 to 50 in Portland, urban Portland. And we were networking. And, what I realized is that I was getting content, ideas, information, books, resources, people, networking opportunities, all those kinds of things that, everyone in my network didn't necessarily have access to.
Most of the people in my network were far more experienced. had maybe larger churches, more resources, and so forth, but would often start turning to me because, they didn't have the connection to certain types of ideas, certain types of people, certain types of books, and I could say, oh, I could refer something to you, or you need to talk to this person, which is what a network is supposed to do, right?
But, I started gaining an, a passion for then, how do we resource youth pastors to get the things they need in their hands so that they can be more effective in these areas of ministry, where maybe they haven't been able to take classes or have mentors and, they've had to figure out, reinvent the wheel, et cetera, inside, doing it, they're trying to figure it out 20 minutes before the horde of middle schoolers show up for, a youth group, right?
Which is not the best time to figure things out by the way. So at that point, I started taking, notes, in my classes as I was studying ministry, theology, Bible, discipleship, evangelism, and not just for my own ministry, but actually what would I, what am I noting about the way the professor shares how they communicate and train me?
And so I would note their techniques, the, the teaching you. Tips that they were doing and giving to me by modeling them, as well as the content and information that I needed for my own ministry. And then, yeah, it just progressed. So I just stayed in school for a decade, or so, and, and I kept doing full time youth ministry while, doing school part time and sometimes full time.
And, and eventually started taking on adjunct classes. And then, there was periods where I was teaching what I was doing. Taking classes on about what I was doing while also doing it full time. So I don't necessarily recommend all that at once. But, I think there's a synergy, of course, in what we call the praxis, theory and practice put together the theory informs the practice.
And then I go back and say, Hey, it didn't work like you said it did. I tried it, and, and then likewise, when I'm doing something, I can say, Oh, how does the theory inform this better? How does my learning about this help me understand the theory better? And there's that cycle of going deeper and deeper into it.
And, and I think that's super important and helpful when, studying and practicing, we can't divorce the two, we can't separate them out. We have to put them together. So that's always been my passion. So I've always wanted to resource people in the church to mobilize them to reach teenagers and of course, the whole culture.
And how do we equip and mobilize others? Has been my sort of question and passion. And so now I see a need now, especially in the area of foster care, trauma, disability, and especially in youth ministry in the local church and so forth. And so we're trying to lean into that because I think the church is ready to hear this and there is a great need.
And, I want to equip the church with resources where they can, follow God's heart in this area.
Yeah. You've, you've got a book coming out, um, soon, I believe, and the working title is Youth Ministry on the Margins. Who is on the margins? Mike, I think you've been talking about it here a little bit. Tell us who's on the margins as you survey the landscape of demographics, and you're aware of people out there.
Who is that for you?
Yeah, that's an important question, Mark. And of course, the margins, the lines, evolve based on who's making them, what theology they have. We tend to draw lines all the time. We tend to make lists all the time. And, one of the things I love about Jesus's teaching, especially, especially the, The, the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep and the lost brother, where he's basically saying, we need to get rid of our lists here of who is in and who is out.
And, and we need to be going after all of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost brothers and because that aligns with the heart of God. Now, of course, we can't go after everything, every moment, right? So for this, for this purpose in this book, Youth Ministry on the Margins, we're focusing on sort of three specific things that I've found in both my personal experience with foster care and youth ministry.
And of course, in the research that pretty typically overlap. And so disability, is one of those things, in an area where the church is, I think, again, as I said, becoming really aware of the need. And, and yeah. People with disabilities, whether physical or mental health disabilities, constitute in each of those groups about 20 percent of the population. So we can just say basically, and sometimes they have both mental and physical disability. And so if we just simply look at that number alone, 20 percent for either one of those groups, that's 20 percent of those people who are actually not getting to church. We know very clearly that people with physical or mental health issues do not engage the church and actually no one in their family engages the church as well.
So think of 20 percent of the population and everyone in their immediate circle never going to church because they for various reasons. physical or health reasons, can't, and then when you look at, groups like foster care and so forth, often they have neglect or abuse, which can create traumas.
They can create mental disabilities. They can get physical disabilities through the abuse. And sometimes those are temporary, and sometimes not. But, often kids at risk and those types of foster care environments move into the margins, away from the normal resources, and, and relationships that children need to thrive.
And, of course, it also removes them from access to the church, for various reasons, like if they're in a wheelchair and they can't get into the youth room, they can't go to youth groups. Those kinds of things. And we need to be thinking about those who, just broadly defining margins, those who are on the margins of society, those who don't have access, those we are not paying attention to.
And those that those are people that God deeply cares for and favors. He talks about orphans and widows, right? And and that's not. Everyone in that group, but it's a, a scriptural device called an inclusio, right? Which is the bookends, the A to Z, it's orphans and widows and everyone in between who we have ignored or shuffled off to the side or rejected in some way.
God is very clear that he does not reject them. And, and we need to be welcoming and going to, and bringing those people, not just to serve them, but to be part of the church. Otherwise the church is impoverished. We don't have the gifts that they, are given by the spirit. They're not, leading with us.
We don't have those perspectives and understandings that they would bring and enrich the church with. And so we're all impoverished by that. If we ignore the margins and stay in our comfortable status quo, et
You mentioned, 20 percent of the population that feels pretty vast. I'm recalling a quote from the book, The Body Keeps the Score, book on trauma. And it says that for every returning war vet with severe PTSD, there are 10 children for whom their home is a war zone.
Think of a statement like that, and I think of your 20%, it feels overwhelming. Is there something to that, to, to what I'm saying here, that it is really a massive problem?
yeah, I phrase it like this. We normally talk about the, the 10 40 window being the unreached people groups of the world. If my stats are right, and, and I do believe they are, and they are worldwide. That means that there's 20 percent of the population of the planet that has a diagnosable disability or mental illness.
And that we also know, at a very high degree, 90 plus percent, they don't engage with the church in any way. If that's true, they are the largest unreached people group on the planet, period. So when we begin to note that, then we can start to say what changes in our theology need to happen. What changes in our practice and strategy, or maybe even just simple things in our buildings, like wheelchair ramps and becoming ADA compliant and so forth. Maybe we train our youth staff and children's ministry staff on trauma.
So it's not just a kid that has behavior issues, but how do we understand what's underlying those behaviors? And the behaviors are very real and often very difficult. But if we can understand the trauma or the disability, then often we can, work in much more effective ways to support the child.
And, bring them into the community, support the family so that they can also be part of the community, even, and think of their siblings that are also outside of the church because of great needs of maybe another sibling, right? So that often happens when you have a child that has a, a disability or a mental illness or something along those lines.
The siblings, who may be neurotypical, as we might call it, more in the middle of our expectations, if that's true. Right or not. They, they often are called glass children because they are ignored by the system. All the resources and time and effort are being poured into siblings, who have, a difficult need.
The other siblings are often left out and they don't have access to, often educational support structures, tutoring, sports, and of course the church. They're, they're simply part of a system that's all turned inward on the great need of a person in their side, their family. And, and the family is often suffering and trying to do that all alone.
And the church, is, has been broadly unaware of those
Yeah. That makes me wonder, how aware is the church of these needs, both, here in America and globally, and how is the church becoming aware of these needs?
Yeah, that's a great question. I can't give a definitive answer on that, of course, but what I can tell you, I'm very encouraged by a number of theologians who are writing very specifically on this area about disability and leadership in the church and spiritual gifts in the church about how, how we have, maybe not read carefully the Old Testament about, examples of, and the way God interacts with this specific group of people and cares for the margins and how to bring them in.
And so I think as we do theological work, it will change, the way we do and practice ministry and strategy and so forth for, for discipleship and evangelism. Just, for example, we often think something like the Imago Dei is when I reflect God properly, or when I look like Jesus, then I'm properly being in the image of God.
But if we take that stance, there's some problems there that when I'm, Not reflecting God, by my standards or my definition from external, not from God's definition, but from like our social definitions, we often then say, if this person's not producing or proper in some way, then, then they're not in the image or fully in the image.
And we can begin to dehumanize people or cast them off to the side. And I think that's the real, the real problem with the margin. It's not just that we didn't notice them. And oh, now we need to do something about it. It's actually really at Beth, at base, a theological issue where we have drawn lines that don't include everyone.
And, until we redraw those lines with, God's definitions in mind, we're imposing. These false boundaries and placing people on the margins of society and therefore out of the church and out of access to All of the community that is so needed to be healthy And so I think that's a theological turn that's beginning to happen lots of writing and thinking happening about that And of course, we're also seeing a movement in In children's ministry, especially about practical issues of, of being sensitive to sensitivity issues, like for children who have autism and maybe certain fans or lights or colors or textures are not helpful.
And we know this, maybe, we need sensory rooms. And a lot of churches are turning to the education world and maybe even hiring, those who specialize, in, neurodiversity in an educational setting like a public school and bringing them in as consultants or even as children's pastors in the church.
Of course, the typical church or the typical mission or parachurch ministry can't hire maybe somebody who is a special education director for their church. Maybe they don't even have a children's pastor, let alone someone specializing in that area. So we probably just need to become also very practical about how we train and equip and think about this.
And that's one thing, our work is trying to do, how do we think about our theology and also, we don't need a million dollar budget to rethink our strategy to reach people on the margins. But there are some things we probably need to change. Like maybe handrails, things like that.
And isn't there, yes there is, like a sociological, Emotional Intelligence, component to this, some people tend to be Even in many churches, they tend to be judgmental, or they have strong opinions about, oh, look at this child, how are they behaving, what's wrong with them, rather than moving toward becoming more curious as people, instead of asking, what's wrong, what's wrong with them, asking maybe, what happened to him, or what's going on in this person that I can understand better, a shift in, What we are like as people from being a little more, a little less judgmental or critical and more, Hey, I'm really curious about that.
And then adding to that compassion, when you have curiosity and compassion, it's a powerful mix. I think Yeah.
was two children. We were in Appalachia, and it was a very difficult neighborhood, a three county area, actually. And, Georgia, in the legislator had passed a rule, that, any, caseworker that wasn't visiting their children on a monthly basis could be legally liable or criminally prosecutable.
And and of course it's good for social workers to see their children at least every 30 days. The problem was the system was so over full and overloaded and there weren't enough social workers to see the children that they currently had in the system. They just stopped pulling children from homes. And then they tried to find other ways to deal with the situations in the home, without making themselves criminally negligent in their jobs. . We moved in, did the training, waited and then we were placed with some children. What I didn't know at the time was that it was the only children that had been removed in a three county area in about five months.
And it was such a disastrous and difficult and, abuse, laden case, that they would only show up with two police officers at the home to visit the family because they were, physically at threat. They moved the children out of the county. We never met or saw the parents, we would have to, take different routes home to go drop them off at the center where they would do visits, and then they would move the kids to it.
That kind of stuff like we're playing cat and mouse to protect the children, but we brought, we brought these kids home and, The girl was five and she was wearing shorts and a tank top and had one flip flop. That was it. That's all we had. And we found out that the shorts were actually two t pants made for an 18 month old.
And no underwear, no nothing. And the two year old boy, her younger brother, couldn't walk or talk. And we went to Walmart, bought him some stuff and found out that she would grab things and try to eat them, tear them apart with her teeth. She would chew up her bedding on a nightly basis, had never slept in a bed and so forth.
And, we entered, quite literally a very difficult time. That was the worst in our lives. I slept in, I slept at the foot of her doorway, for about, Three weeks. She offered herself to me sexually, for example. So we're trying to carefully navigate this really difficult situation.
And, and it was beyond our capability. We went to church, locally and we were relatively new to the community and we called the church and we say, we have this situation. I don't think you guys can handle this. And they said, let's look into it. And they said, no, you need to come. And so a couple of weeks into the placement, we show up at church and a lady met us.
She was, in her mid forties. She says, I've been a special education teacher and consultant for 15 years. And she took, our little foster girls, five year old hand and looked us in the eyes and said, everything will be all right. Meet me back here in two hours. And, and she became a buddy for our little girl and walked off with her and we went and cried for an entire hour because we were just so relieved.
And then we went to church and sat in church and were able to engage with other adults for the first time in many weeks. , and we're just so thankful that the church had stepped up. Okay, so that's the good part of the story. The bad part of the story is, the children's, got out and we went and picked her up and, we had other kids with us as well, some we adopted and they were doing little laps around the pews in the church while some other people from our new small group were buying pizza and they were going to take us and our kids, foster kids to the park and we were going to play and everybody was going to watch this one little girl to make sure she was safe and, and all those types of things.
But they were doing little laps like a racetrack around the pew. And my wife and I were standing at one end corralling them while the pizza was being bought. The lights are turning off and all this kind of stuff. And the pastor came up to us. And he said, Hey, get those kids out of here.
This is the sanctuary of the Lord.
Yeah.
And,
Yeah.
maybe that wasn't the best place to play with the children, but we were a little bit at wit's end and we didn't know what to do. And I think, at, in evidence, there are two very different theologies. One is, let me take your hand. We will come alongside you and provide, and provide community and resource, for this, very difficult situation.
And this very difficult child, she was very difficult. And then on the other side, where the room became more important than a foster child who had never been to church in her life, and was there for the first time and we were asked to leave because, they were giggling. And I think that just exemplifies we need to change in theology and we also need to be places that can step up.
It doesn't, that church did not have a sensory room or paid staff, but they were able to accommodate us and allow us to actually go to church as foster parents. And I think if we can become places like that and move away from a theology that sort of. Lands on, the secondary or tertiary issues and focuses on the IMAGO day in all people, then we're going to be at a much better place of able to minister to people and allow them to minister to us too.
Even shifting from a concept of God being remote and harsh and austere and, All of the appropriate detailed behavior is what's most important or you get slapped versus a tender loving father and Jesus who is there and welcomes the children.
Even if the pastor had, gone down on his knee, asked the kids their names, met them and then said, Hey, let me take you to the place where they can run. That, that would have been a whole different approach than, something coming from a, this, really strong theological bent towards buildings over people.
Mike, what kind of resources are you developing, for church leaders and mission leaders, on this journey that you're on that would help us provide more accessible spaces, that are inclusive of disabled populations of those struggling with mental health and their families?
There's a lot of good organizations, doing work in these spaces. Youth for Christ has a work in this area. Johnny and friends has been doing this for decades. There are some manuals and, practical stuff we can learn from schools, thinking about sensory room and specialized training for teachers, integrated, and we have to think through our philosophy.
Are we going to do the buddy system like the woman who came and took our little girl and? Spent time with her and in a group and walked with her through the Sunday school program. Are we going to talk about separate spaces for, people with certain kinds of disabilities or integrate them into the entire program?
So we have to think through our philosophy. I also think we need to just step back and ask the right questions. I have a friend who's working on the book with me, Laura Widstrom from Olivet Nazarene. She teaches youth ministry there as well, like I do here at Taylor. We're working on this project and she talks about calling ahead to churches when she moves or changes communities.
And, often she doesn't get calls back. She's I have a autistic son. He's adopted from the foster system. We have these issues and they're like, okay, we'll talk to the children's pastor and they never reply. And she's okay. So that's sort of a indication that they don't know what to do with this.
Or, they, they can't answer my questions and just don't. But I think it's important to, as ministers to look at your ministry space, starting with the phone. How are we able to respond to families like mine who call and say, I have this foster children with some profound disabilities. How can you help me?
We need to know how to answer that question and how to get them to the right people and so forth. We need to think about our website and what information could be on there. I don't think we need to have entire pages for specific ministries for children with exceptionalities or disabilities. But parents are looking to see if they can get into the building.
Where's the parking, how's the lighting, how's the sensory stuff, and then to maybe actually walk through our buildings and our ministries and see, could a teenager who's in a wheelchair actually get to the youth room or the Sunday school class? And I hear all the time, this comment, when I'm having discussions with youth pastors and I have, I've been there myself.
I don't have anybody with a disability in my youth group. Again, I think if you build it, they will come when we start providing access. I think people will engage with that because it's so desperately needed. And, and when we find ways to make spaces welcoming for different groups. And maybe finding buddies for to walk through specific needs, those kinds of things.
I think we'll find people coming out of the woodwork to engage our ministries. But until we actually walk through our spaces, our bathrooms, the signage, tactile sensory lights type of stuff, and just getting some basic awareness of how this affects, whether it's a child with autism or a kid who's just gone through a traumatic experience, we need to become aware.
And I think that's just, a helpful sort of walk through type of approach. Yeah, and then to have policies and, practices. People who are trained, how we thought through, okay, when somebody shows up, how do we work with a parent? To make sure that they're at the right types of experiences.
And, for example, a child, I had three kids with autism in my youth group at one point in a group of 25, they didn't participate in every game. Some of them were not appropriate for them. They didn't go to every single message. Some of them weren't developmentally appropriate for their spot.
And so I communicated with and worked with the parents and that child's buddy to make sure that it was, coordinated, so that we're actually working with the parents and the families for the interest of the child's best needs because the parents know better than anybody what the child actually needs.
And if we're not incorporating them into our ministry, then we're probably missing the boat. A lot of times, you know, we just want parents to drop off their kids and then we do ministry at them
Yeah,
instead of with the child and with the family and incorporate the family's needs and understandings for their own child for the best possible
effect.
it's a challenging hill we're climbing. We have brought our son to church on a few occasions and even if, and when he is able to, experience. And be in a setting that might not be tailored to him, but is not opposed to him either.
There are still like his own social and anxiety issues that make it even more difficult, I think, for this, for many in this population.
And the whole church has to be on board. If you bring in children with sensory issues, they may react to the color of the chair. Are we willing to bring in a different color chair for that child to sit in? And I've been in places that would not allow such things.
And other churches that would have changed every single chair in the room to make it work, um. Yeah, Mark, I think that's absolutely true that we need to be, sensitive. We need to be aware. We need to be asking questions. We need to be seeing it through their, their eyes and, and we need to be willing to be uncomfortable.
If we invite somebody with Tourette's into the worship service, or if they have unsort of controlled, motions, they will disrupt our, status quo, our peaceful service, if you will. And, and we need to be willing to do that if we want to include them in the full life of the body.
Yeah, when we took our son to church once during a quiet moment in worship or the sermon or something, he just speaks out loud something like, Mom, I'm bored. I want to go home. There, there are those dynamics that will be at play.
That happens all the time in youth group normally,
but yeah, in the church service, that's a little different. Yeah.
And children are already disruptive, just by nature. So I think if we want to be inclusive of, the whole body, we need to start getting used to those disruptions, whether they be from a baby or, somebody who might be struggling in the moment or, whoever it is, I think, we need to be more understanding of that.
Hmm. As we were preparing for this call, Mike, Carly and I were saying how we just, we love this conversation because one collective has our missions, our mission is that we bring people together to help the oppressed. People on the margins is the focus of our work around the world.
And even intentionally. We have a few locations that are working directly with people with disabilities and mental disabilities, physical disabilities, and our, our leaders, more and more, they are exploring ways that they can engage this part of the population.
And of course, disability isn't the only margin, but I think it's a margin that we're beginning to be aware of. And, and the resources I think will be able to transform our, ability to, Welcome and make them a part of, and then let them bless us. And it's not a matter of doing ministry to, but doing ministry with, and I think that's another perspective change, that everyone in the family, I've got everyone in the church has a gift, a spiritual gift given by the spirit.
And, that includes people with exceptionalities and disabilities that includes all ages, right? It includes those on the margins or those in the center. However we want to make, those boundaries, we all have gifts. And, uh, when someone is not allowed to give their gift to the church. Church. We understand that creates disunity and immaturity and division.
We've got a problem if we're not welcoming the gifts, across all peoples that, are part of the body.
What would you, uh, say to students as they're contemplating their future and they may be wrestling with, this, they may be, just becoming aware of this need in the world and considering whether to make it a part of their future. Yeah. What advice would you give to students?
Yeah, I love working with young adults, teenagers. That's been my whole life. My, my majority of work right now is, late teens, young adults, training them for ministry and it's so fun to help them find, not just their gifts, and interests, but a passion. And I really, Tell them when you start to feel something for a group of people, or even a location or a need, that's really your heart aligning with God's heart.
God's already there. God's already at work. Firmly believe that, in a number, theologically speaking, God's already there at work. And, and he's probably drawing you into that. I also want to warn them that you can't, fulfill every need and, address every margin all at once.
And Yeah, and so grow into that passion. It's okay to have a focus. We need different kinds of people and different kinds of ministries to meet the different needs. And I think as a body, as we respond to God's heart for all of these groups and all of these needs, then we all together do the work of God and make the kingdom more evident.
Here on earth. So yeah, I would tell them to lean into it to find the thing that resonates with them, to not worry about the things that they can't do or can't solve right now, but to lean in on that one thing. And so it's, it's really not a matter of just finding a good thing to do, because there's always good things to do.
In fact, there's always great things in the kingdom, but the real thing is to find the thing that you were created for. And, uh, what, what is the one thing, that God is asking of you? And if we settle for good or even great things, we'll probably burn out and we might miss, great joy in our lives and ministry. Because I've had 40 foster children come through my home on temporary basis and like 15 long term people often ask me, you know why I've done that or what's it like and often young people will say I want to do that. I want to warn everyone. I've worked in urban environments, I've dealt with, violence and drugs and, criminality.
I've had police snipers in my junior high room shooting out of the windows, those kinds of environments, really interesting stories. But it was, but that's nothing compared to when I brought it into my home. And I think it's one thing when we hold off at arm's distance, ministry, and we can create a program.
Or keep it within certain timeframes or boundaries. I don't think hospitality allows us to do that. Biblical hospitality really requires us to offer not just tea and crumpets between five and seven at my predetermined location, but to actually Invite someone into my life to the point where, I sacrifice for them.
And then they also have rights and responsibilities back to me. That's just sort of oriental hospitality, right? And that's what Christ offers for us. As a host would, that he sacrifices his life in place of his guests. That is the story of redemption and salvation, right?
That Christ's hospitality was incredibly costly, cost him his life, but in place of ours. And when we enter into these types of spaces, it's one thing to let a teenager who's lost and ran away from their parents, sleep on your floor while the police are coming or something like that, because you found them.
It's a very different thing to invite it into a lifestyle and to move into the neighborhood. But I think those are the places where the light shines the brightest and it's also, deeply difficult. And I don't think everybody needs to, necessarily do foster care or, work, in disability ministry directly.
But if we don't support one another in these things, if we're not praying for, I've had times when foster placement happened or, we had a child with a disability. People didn't mow my lawn or bring me a lasagna. Like it wasn't going to happen. Right. So there's ways to support one another in this without, having to, necessarily, do it all ourselves.
And, and again, it's a body effort, right? If everyone in my local church was doing foster care, my local church would not exist. I, I mean that literally, like we wouldn't survive. But, when some of us do foster care and everyone participates in it, it becomes doable, right? I think that's the way we need to think about ministry to youth on the margins.
If we are simply trying to make a program
Yeah
do it all ourselves, it won't work for various reasons. But when we come together as a body and create an environment, a community, a culture, and be the church, then we can bring people into that. And it won't, it won't, it'll tear us apart in certain ways, but in all the right ways.
I love your insertion of the topic of hospitality Mike it reminds me of henry nowens. He has a number of statements on hospitality and one of them is Hospitality is not an atmosphere we provide where we are trying to change people. It's providing an atmosphere where change can take place. And, it, and it will be messy.
Change is hard and especially perhaps with people with unique struggles, the change could be, expressed in ways that are harder for us. And so I, I, I love. The messiness of hospitality, if you will, but the deep value of it because so much life can take place there.
It's beautiful when we live out being the church and, and understand our calling and, and God continues to grow us in those ways. But again, we've got to be willing to be uncomfortable, right? It's not, hospitality is not on my terms with my boundaries in my spaces. It's really a self sacrificial activity where we offer ourselves, you know,
We totally agree and we can definitely see the investment that you're making in this next generation of leaders. It is significant. So that's very evident. Just in our several years long relationship with you.
So
Yeah, thank you.
Your bio, Mike says that you are committed to providing love, care, opportunities, and safety to the most vulnerable among us. And I just want to say that I see that and we value that. And, may the Lord 📍 bless you as you continue in that trajectory.
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Ministry with Youth in Crisis (Newly Released Book by Dr. Mike)
The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Bessel van der Kolk – Insights on trauma and healing.
Wounded Healer by Henri Nouwen – Reflections on compassionate leadership.
#5 Transforming Lives Through Urban Ministry and Education - Dr. Tommy Carrington:
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 5 | 28 Minutes | Dec 24, 2024
Have you ever wondered how your story could shape a life-changing impact on others? From growing up in Jamaica to leading urban ministry efforts in Miami, Dr. Tommy Carrington’s journey is a testament to the power of stepping into God’s calling—even when it feels daunting.
In this episode of the Innovate for Good podcast, Dr. Carrington shares how his passion for at-risk youth led to decades of transformative urban ministry, the founding of the Urban Training Network, and a role as a professor equipping the next generation of ministry leaders. Whether you’re considering a career in ministry, urban work, or nonprofit leadership, Dr. Carrington’s story will inspire and challenge you to embrace the unique ways God can use your gifts.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
Dr. Tommy Carrington’s early years in Jamaica and transition to the U.S.
How a college internship ignited his passion for urban youth ministry
Founding the Urban Training Network to empower underserved churches
Lessons from 30+ years of ministry in Miami’s diverse communities
Why teaching the next generation of leaders fuels his passion today
How students can overcome apprehension and make an immediate impact in ministry
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Dr. Tommy Carrington is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, with decades of experience in urban ministry, youth mentorship, and nonprofit leadership. Born and raised in Jamaica, Tommy immigrated to Miami, where he served as a chaplain in a juvenile detention center and later as an area director for Youth for Christ. In 1995, he founded the Urban Training Network, an organization dedicated to equipping churches with tools to reach underserved youth. Now a professor, Dr. Carrington is passionate about preparing the next generation of ministry leaders to serve communities with courage, creativity, and compassion.
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welcome to the Innovate for Good podcast. Um, I'm Carly. and
Mark.
we are talking to people who are making a difference in their fields. And today we're here with Tommy Carrington, Dr. Tommy Carrington, a Christian ministries professor at Taylor university. So thank you so much for joining
us today, Tommy.
My joy.
let me just say just again really quick, good to see you. I've been in like a handful of your classes and that's always been fun. You've been so gracious to allow me, one collective, to share about, who we are in your classes and meet with your students. I'm sure we'll be coming there this fall.
So,
tommy, we are really curious about your early years. You grew up and you were raised in Jamaica. I've got all kinds of questions, but I'll just let you talk.
Yeah, born and raised in Jamaica. My, both my parents are Jamaican. A lot of people ask me if they were missionaries or anything and the answer is no.
And as far as we can trace back the, history, we're Jamaican, you know,
Carrington's in the Caribbean and Trinidad and Jamaica.
That is so interesting. And Jamaica, the national language is, I mean, it's English, right? But there's also the local language.
Well, so the national language is English. So we were a British colony and the British, you know, brought African slaves and Indian. So there is a dialect. So it's not a fully formed language per se. you can't write it, except phonetically, so people will speak it, and we call it patois, but it's, it's basically broken English with a few African words and made up words, and it's, it's, it's interesting, but, but yeah,
or, or, Yeah, our basic language is English.
And do you have like a memory or two that, stands out from your childhood? Oh, wow.
Lots of great memories. Well, guess the one that stands out is I grew up in the capital. So in the city, Kingston, which is not particularly remarkable or anything. So tourists don't really go there. but island of Jamaica is beautiful. And so the highlights for me as a kid was to go with my family.
We would go to the mountains, you know, the blue mountains or, mountains in Mandeville or of course the beaches. So the nicest beaches were in the North coast or the, furthest West coast in Montego Bay and Negril. Kingston was close to the ocean, but not nice white sand beaches like you have in the other parts.
So yeah, the contrast of mountains and hills and then the ocean right there. You literally come off a mountain and you're at the ocean, yeah, it's absolutely stunning and beautiful.
Wow. Do you still have family there?
I don't. So when we left, gradually the whole family left, including cousins and aunts and uncles. And yeah, so when I, go back, which is not too often now, but when I do, who I see would be like my church family. So I still have good connections with people from the church that I grew up with.
So kids that were in youth group with me who, you know, one is now the senior pastor and the youth pastor and the elders. And so, yeah, that's cool.
So what
brought you, specifically to Miami?
So when my parents decided to immigrate, they chose Miami. I'm trying to think why, because I graduated from high school. And so, you know, you just go with your parents. They chose Miami. We had connections, not family, but just people that we knew. So it was very hard to, when you immigrate from a country and you just arrive in another country, you kind of need a foundation.
You kind of need a base. So there were families that took us in and showed us around, helped us get our first job. I had my first
job at 16. I was a car porter for, a major, car company, and
then I was a bus boy and then waiter at a restaurant at nights. And on weekends I worked at Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips.
so you were just immersed right in the
community from the beginning right when you moved there
yeah, we came here with very little money and the clothes on our back and the suitcases and everybody went to work. Mark says: Well, that is amazing that you made that journey and got connected so quickly. I want to switch gears a bit, you hvae a passion and interest in community urben work. Can you tell us how you went form a Car porter to running a non-profit and teaching?
And in Miami, I'm thinking that's kind of where your interest in community work and urban work kind of was hatched. Right? I mean, you probably began to see some things in Miami that were sparking an interest or maybe a new direction in life for you. Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, so it didn't start out that way. I was a psychology major at a Christian college. Biblical studies and counseling psychology. And as a part of my college internship, we were required to do an internship. And the way they put it, you know, this is an undergraduate level, so you're not doing serious clinical counseling, but they wanted us to at least experience the.
Field of psychology. So I did an internship with a Christian counselor. I did a few months with a marriage and family therapist. And then I did three months with the chaplain of the juvenile detention center in Miami. It was chaplaincy, so it was a combination of church programming, but then we would go back and talk with the kids one on one.
So that was my introduction to, working with kids at risk. And, yeah, something ignited there where when I was doing my internship with clinical therapists, it was okay, but I just couldn't see myself doing that. They were amazing therapists. I just couldn't see myself doing that.
And when I was working with the chaplain of the juvenile detention center, And I would talk to kids and I would share the gospel and I would, you know, listen to them. That's where it clicked. And that's where I developed a real passion and burden for these kids who were locked up in jail, basically. And hearing their stories and how they got
there and all of those kinds of things really made an impact on me.
And so, a volunteer position turned into a part time position and then a full time position. And so, yeah, I was one of the assistant chaplains of the juvenile detention center in Miami for five years.
I was just going to say that you launched this nonprofit. The urban training network. Was that later on? Or was that soon after you had this experience with the detention center,
Yes. So it was much later on. So I served in the chaplaincy for five years.
And then one of my burdens was, hearing all these stories about how these kids came from their life story and their family backgrounds. And so I developed a burden for, what's the life of a kid before they get locked up, before they get to this stage.
And so I became an area director with Youth for Christ.
Liberty City, Overtown were my areas. And so working with kids who would be considered at risk kids, just community kids, And, doing evangelism and discipleship in that context. So I did that for seven years. So I was with Youth for Christ for 12.
And then I started my own organization. So 12 years later.
Wow.
What prompted you to take that next step of transitioning from that role with Youth for Christ to actually starting the Urban Training Network? Right.
but one of the biggest ones was, well, I'll give you two big ones. So one was, in my role with Youth for Christ, I did Miami's first urban youth workers seminar, and we just decided to just do a training, not for Youth for Christ staff, but to advertise it to the community and bring people in for training.
So it was an African American fellow. Staff worker and myself that had this idea. And so we, said we're going to do the seminar and we're kind of joking with each other. Your mom will come, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he said, you know, your brother will come, right? And I said, yeah, my brother will come.
So we got the word out. And when the day came over 200 people showed up for this training
and the two of us looked at each other like, Oh, we were like, Oh, somebody called churches chicken quick.
Cause we don't have
enough. Yeah, We don't have enough lunch. We don't have enough materials. And it was amazing. So at the end of the day, we both looked at each other and said, you think there's a need here? And we kind of said there, there's a need. And so that was the spark.
That was the first spark was the fact that there was such a need and people came hungry and they just wanted to learn and they were just
so, you know, so this was in the community. The other thing that sparked it was I realized that when I was picking up kids for our youth group, we had a van, I would drive around and pick up kids, I would literally pass.
30, 40 storefront churches to get to, you know, the spot where we were doing our Bible studies. And I would always wonder what happens in that little church in that corner. What about on that corner and that corner, all these churches, do they have youth groups? Are they reaching kids?
And so I ventured, I would knock on doors and find out that Nobody had office hours there. But I would try to find the leaders. And so between the seminars and door to door, I just found out that there's a huge need that they don't typically have youth groups, but they wanted to. They didn't know where to start or what to do.
And so that was the spark that led me to say, you know what? This is a full time ministry. We've got to build relationships with churches and bring training to them and help them.
Wow.
Yeah.
And that was kind of the birth of this entity.
so the Urban Training Network was born and, initially it comprised of, trainings. So, I continue to do the Urban Youth Workers Seminar, in fact, in 2019, we celebrated the 33rd Urban Youth Workers Seminar in Miami.
Then it turned into, mentoring and ongoing training and weekly trainings and yeah, it just grew and exploded.
It sounds like that the churches maybe weren't aware that they were, uh, one of many that there were many in the same that didn't have access to this training and that you were kind of uncovering this as you were talking to many churches, which we often see that churches aren't working together, aren't speaking to each other and they're divided even as they have
similar goals.
Yeah. Yeah. And then the word started to get out, I don't want to say that I became a household name in Miami, but people text me now and say, you know, I was
just meeting with a pastor or youth pastor and they mentioned your name and they miss you and they want you back and all of that.
You know, 33
years of doing the same
thing in the same general area. Yeah, your
name gets around.
Yeah. I mean, household name in Miami might be something like LeBron
James or something, but, but, um, so how did this contribute to like, further transformation in the city?
one of the exciting things that I got to witness are things like churches that didn't have any youth ministry at all to launching a youth ministry and getting it going. And then I would see transitions like churches that had a small youth ministry, but It was either all programmatic, you know, you just show up and there's, you know, the way I say it, you, you sing for an hour, preach for an hour, send everybody home, you know, it's just a program.
And so I'm going in and I'm training them and how to build relationships, how to do events, how to do, community outreaches, you know, those kinds of things, creative, elements of youth ministry. So to watch a youth ministry go from all we used to do is Wednesday night or Friday night youth group.
And now to recruit volunteers and now they're going into schools and they're doing Bible clubs and school campuses and all different things that I got to, to witness happen.
here
So it was going really, really well. And when I had this, notion to leave it, to go back and do a second doctorate, that was, that was a tough decision, but
I bet.
yeah.
What led you to pursue that second doctorate? What were some of those factors in your mind that you're considering?
Yeah. So number one was, I loved what I was doing. I was passionate about it. But all my life from graduation, from college, I have had to raise my own support, and I don't know why, but it just became, harder and harder, and it just became if I didn't do more fundraising, then I couldn't support myself, but it would take away from the ministry.
And just, it became a financial struggle. The second thing that was happening at the same time was I was
loving training. I was loving this idea of passing on to the next generation, all the things that God had given me the, opportunity to learn and do.
And so I wanted to formally pass it on to the next generation. The one of the best ways to do that is probably through a college.
Yeah.
And when I would apply to teach, I had a doctor of ministry, but most schools want you to have a PhD. They would just say, we'd love your background. We'd love your training, but accreditation requires us that our full time professors have PhDs.
And I thought, you know what? I've wanted this all my life. I've dreamed of it. I'm going to do it. Sold my house in
Miami, moved to Illinois and pursued a PhD at Trinity.
is so exciting,
Tommy. As someone who knows you just like in classroom short conversations, hearing this story, I mean, starting with You're from a Jamaican family. It's like, this is kind of blowing me away, but it's so enriching. And can you tell us a little more about like the transition now into your professor role? I'd love to hear more about that and just how that's going for
Yeah. So, the burden to, pursue higher education, get a PhD led me to move to Illinois. Went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I completed my coursework in two years. And then, after your coursework comes, dissertation. Well, when I finished my coursework, it was 2020. I finished, in January of 2020, then COVID hit, and you might think that might be a good time for me to write my dissertation, but, not so much.
But at the same time, Trinity offered me a full time teaching position starting the fall of 2020.
So, I transitioned to that and was teaching for them. My master's was in psychology and they needed a psychology professor. So I was teaching psychology at Trinity and I loved it, but it wasn't my passion.
Okay.
I was constantly thinking, do I want to train the next generation of Christian ministry leaders or potential therapists? And it was, you know what? It's, it's ministry. I want to train ministry leaders. I want to train
the next generation of youth pastors. So anyway, I love teaching at Trinity, taught for two years full time.
And then the opportunity at Taylor. came up and I knew the director of the program and, they needed a Christian ministry professor and they loved the emphasis on youth ministry and urban ministry. They loved, they loved the combination of all the ingredients that I would bring. And so, yeah, it was a natural transition.
So in your role now, I've heard your passion for urban ministry and youth and training. What would you say is your, what do you love the most now? Like what's your biggest passion now in what you're doing?
So, it's that idea of, you know, I walk into the classroom and I see the 18 year old Tommy Carrington sitting in that classroom.
I see him, or her, right?
And I see that. I see me in them. And I'm giving stories and telling them about, youth ministry and everything, and I can almost feel that feeling that I felt.
Preaching my first sermon in the juvenile detention center or that first camp that I ever did with at risk kids or that first time mentoring a group of students from the inner city who loved, coming to my house and doing a Bible study, those kinds of things.
And so, although I, I miss it, I miss that, but the opportunity to invest in the next generation of. young leader that's gonna go out there and do what I did for 30 plus years, you know? So that's exciting to me, and it's exciting to, sit with the students for coffee. Or in my office or, on campus and just be able to, listen to them, what's their heart, what's their vision and to speak into it and to, talk about my experiences and what led me to do what I did after college.
And, you know, so that, that excites me.
That feels like a really natural continuation of what you've done, you know, from your first day in ministry to where you're investing in this next generation now to continue those same things. Do you have any examples or stories of, How the second generation, of ministry workers has impacted the community or have gone on then to even train other ministry workerseither from when you were in Miami or as a professor.
I'll tell you the most exciting thing that happened in the last 10 years. Just so I sold my house. I'm planning to move to Illinois and my kids. from my youth group who are now in their nearly 40.
And they have, they're married with kids, but they found out I was leaving and they organized the
reunion. We had kids come from North Carolina, Georgia, and of course all over Miami. And we had about 30 of them come and gather together. And it was just so exciting.
And encouraging to hear their stories and those that are continuing with the Lord and those that went into ministry and, kids with master's degrees, kids from the projects of Miami that graduated and went to college, have a nurse, have a pharmacist that has a doctorate. just amazing to hear their stories.
And of course, you know, as a basket case when they're saying things like they're pointing to the volunteers or myself and saying, you know, it was our tutoring program that led them to want to go to college and got them into college. And it was,
The Youth for Christ program that this and I was just a basket case.
It was so humbling, you know, but it was so beautiful.
That's really special. that they, we're able to value you and celebrate you in that way.
As you made that big transition. That's cool
That was incredible.
Yeah. So how does, how would you say that, getting involved in community transformation to work helps students. In their own lives and their own faith journeys.
Or I'll say it again to how would getting involved in urban ministry help students develop and grow in their own faith journeys and their own lives
That
Yeah. So I'll tie it into, something that came up earlier. Somebody challenged me with the question and challenged me, but they asked the question and it was challenging, but you know, how do I feel about, you know, 30 plus years of urban ministry. And now teaching in one of the most, rural, suburban,
uh, white evangelical schools in the nation, right? Have I lost my passion or have I lost the, desire to train and equip leaders in the city. It was actually an African American pastor, a mentor of mine, who was, talking to me about my story of possibly going to teach at Taylor. He said, Tommy, don't diminish the power and the opportunity of you inspiring the kid from Terre Haute, Indiana or wherever, inspiring them to go into ministry in a major metropolitan city.
And who's better to equip them for that than you and your experience? He said, you're going to have students, that might graduate and go into suburban ministry or rural or whatever. But you're going to have students that your story is going to ignite with them. This passion, and they're going to want to possibly go into Chicago or, Miami it doesn't even have to be that big of a city, you know, have a burden for, diverse population, cross cultural ministry, all those kinds of things. And now Taylor University has a professor who that's his life experience.
And you get to pass that on to these students and inspire them with that.
It sounds like you have, experienced perhaps a number of times where you're talking with a student, maybe it happens in the classroom and the light goes off and they see something for the first time that they haven't seen before and That must be enriching and fulfilling for you.
Yeah, definitely.
Praticle for Students
What would students getting involved in these, under resourced communities do for the communities?
So the first thing that comes to my mind is that in the same way that I had the advantage of a college education, of Youth for Christ training, those kinds of things. And I didn't know how, under resourced communities weren't even aware of things like when I talk about a philosophy of youth ministry, those words by themselves, they were like, you have a philosophy of youth ministry.
They were like, okay. So I'm equipping students. with resources and philosophies of ministry, strategies for ministry, how to do it. And so when they get there to wherever God takes them, they will have a wealth of information and resources that a lot of churches don't have and will appreciate it.
Even from a 22 year old kid who just graduated from Taylor university.
Yeah,
to tell them that as a 25 year old, thinking that I have nothing to offer, what, what do I have to offer? And then I realized, Oh my goodness, I have a lot to offer.
Oh, that's really helpful because I think many students graduate with a bachelor's degree and think that, they need further education before they can really make an impact. and you're an example and your life is an example of, um, what you can do right now, um, in your community and what you can bring and And they might, , Yeah, not realize all the training that they've had
can really be put to practical use right
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
What advice question
so Tommy what? Advice or piece of advice or message would you want to share with the student who's? Questioning like what what can I do with my life? I I'm interested in ministry and, and I've got this Dr. Carrington. He's my prof. And what would you, I know you teach them, but what would you, if some, if student is listening to this podcast, what word of advice would you give to them?
So I guess the first thing that comes to mind is the advice that was given to me that I just shared about, you know, don't, don't diminish the, that, that you have, what,
what you have to bring. And so a lot of people, some people are intimidated by the fact that they might not have, uh, a powerful testimony.
Uh, they might not have, , , they might not be able to relate to, , an urban youth or somebody from a different culture, , those kinds of apprehensions, or I'm not good with kids or I'm not good at that, you know? And I would just say, listen, if God has planted it in your heart. And you know, you have a vision for this.
There's a reason why that's there. And so God , can use you. Don't don't write it off just because that's not where you're coming from.
So I give this as an example. I became a Christian at 10. Uh, I did grow up in a third world country, but you know, I have two parents and a good background and became a Christian at 10.
So when I'm in the juvenile detention center in Miami and the guy turns to me and says, our speaker didn't show up. Can you speak? And I'm like, wait, who? He said, you just, he said, our speaker didn't show up, just speak. And I said, no, no, no. They told me it was just to serve Kool Aid and cookies. He said, he said, well, and then he says this, he says, well, just share your testimony.
I said, my testimony, I became a Christian at 10. These kids are in here for murder. I have kids that they just blow up a building. What?
Oh
And so I was scared to death, scared to death. And so, but I shared the gospel. I just shared a simple presentation of the gospel and it incorporated a little bit of my story.
And at the end of it, I have kids coming forward and saying, Oh, Mr. Church man, we want you to pray for us. We need Jesus. And they're crying and they're, I was just blown away. I was like, I got home that day and I said, okay, God, I don't know what you're doing. I don't get it. But thank you.
Yes.
for using me today.
And so and so that's what I would pass on to the next generation of 22 year old. That's unsure. And can God use me? And what do I what do I have to say? Uh, can I relate all of those things that give us apprehension? And I'm just saying, if God plants it in your heart, um, you know, he'll equip you and give you what you need.
And yeah, you go for it.
That's really powerful. Thank you.
Yeah.
A quick question for you, Tommy, your students, many of them are, they're Christian ministry majors. Is that, is that
accurate? Are they mostly looking for, serving opportunities within the U S or are, do they have interests overseas as well?
So, within our department, we also have, they can major in intercultural studies. Which is the old, missions major.
Yeah,
that they now called intercultural studies. So, some of the students, when they, uh, are taking classes that I teach in, in introduction to Christian ministry or personal foundations for ministry, uh, some of them will be ministry majors, some of them will be intercultural studies majors, youth ministry majors.
very much. so I have a fair amount of students that, uh, are, you know, interested in, ministry overseas.
And then,
and then I have students that, like I say, it wasn't on their radar before they took my class. And then they come in here, people like you come and
present in class and, for some of them, it's the first time apart from a missions conference at their church, for some of them, it's their first time being exposed to, oh, wow, yeah, God can use me overseas.
Oh, wow.
That's great.
Well, thank you so much for your time and Dr. Tommy Carrington. It was a joy to have you here to hear your story. We don't often get to hear the personal stories of, you know, some of these professors that we rub shoulders with and interact with. So this is a great opportunity to do that and, um, to hear how God's worked in your life and you in the lives of many others. And it's just, um, yeah, we're really grateful for your time.
Thanks. It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed it.
Real treat, Tommy. Good to see you. I look forward to seeing you next time
Yep. Yep. Same here. Take care.
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Building a Youth Ministry that Lasts by Mark DeVries
#4 We Need to Reimagine Modern Worship - Reed Spencer
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 4 | 37 Minutes | Dec 12, 2024
Do you ever find yourself struggling to connect to God in worship? Many of us crave a deeper experience in worship—something that goes beyond performance and truly connects us to God and each other.
In this episode of the Innovate for Good podcast, we speak with Dr. Reed Spencer, professor of music and director of worship arts at Taylor University, about how transformative worship is for building community, teaching theology, and learning about the character of God. Reed shares his journey from aspiring worship leader to choral conductor, his vision for expanding worship practices, and how music connects us to one another and to God in profound ways. Whether you’re a church leader, artist, or simply curious about the intersection of art and faith, this conversation will challenge you to reimagine how worship can truly transform lives.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
The role of wonder and imagination in worship and faith
How choral music fosters community and personal growth
Expanding worship practices to include diverse forms of artistic expression
The spiritual and emotional impact of beauty in worship
Practical ideas for incorporating creativity into church services
Stories of how choral music has brought healing and unity in prisons and refugee communities
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Dr. Reed Spencer is a professor of music and director of choral activities and worship arts at Taylor University. With a doctorate from Boston University, Reed has spent his career exploring the intersection of music, worship, and community. His work focuses on creating spaces where individuals can encounter the transformative power of beauty and the divine through choral artistry. From leading ensembles at Taylor to organizing performances in prisons and refugee communities, Reed’s passion is using music to foster connection, healing, and faith.
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Today we're interviewing Dr. Reed Spencer, who is actually a college friend of mine from back in the day at Taylor university and, the early two thousands.
I'm used to being called Dr. Spencer, but it's weird to hear you say Dr. Spencer. My students call me that all the time, but it's weird when you do. So
Reid Spencer is a professor of music and director of both choral activities and the worship arts major at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. So Reid, thank you so much for joining us today in this conversation.
Thanks for asking me to be part of it.
Reid, can you tell us a little bit about your background and like music, like the role that's played in your life,
yeah, I grew up as a pastor's kid doing music at church.
Okay.
so in a little church, you end up in front of people when you're pretty young. And I think that developed into, the classic combination of a love for music and a love for being celebrated and affirmed for being good at music.
And, that's been a fun journey for me to grow out of and into new things. I, Decided to go into music in college, I think, with a desire to be a performer and with a call, a sort of ambiguous call in my life to be some sort of worship leader. And so I had a strong idea of what that might be, when I was 18 years old, which was probably to go lead with a guitar in a great big church.
And, God has led me on a different journey to where I am now, where I think I'm a worship leader and a teacher and a performer of a really different kind than I would have imagined. And I'm really thankful for that journey and I think I've learned so much about myself and about the power of music and the power of community through that journey.
So I came to Taylor, as a vocal performance 📍 📍 📍 major and then ultimately got really drawn into the community of the corral here at Taylor and the Taylor sounds, the ensemble of 18 or so, and, that became really compelling to me and I decided that it was something that I really deeply loved.
So I went on in that and here I am leading the ensemble that really made me fall in love with choral music. And I'm grateful to be here.
What were the doors that opened that actually brought you back to Taylor? Cause I know you taught at some other places first before returning to Taylor.
To be fair, I always loved the corral, but it wasn't like, something that I thought would happen. It wasn't like a dream that I couldn't let go of or something like that. But I did a doctorate at Boston University and so my wife and I had our first son there. I'm going to
in Boston and we loved the city and we got to experience really cool music. And my first job was actually at Wabash college, which was a college for men. And it was in Indiana. So I was suddenly pretty close to Taylor again and got to reconnect with, our teacher, Dr. Joanne Rettiger here and to stay in touch.
And as she retired, it just seemed like it might be a good opportunity to apply. And It was good timing for us.
You say there was a specific person in your life, you know, maybe it was Dr. Rettiger or maybe somebody else, that kind of had a, a real influence on you to pursue music and maybe even music instruction as a career?
Yeah, I can point to music teachers and I think that most people who are music teachers point to their music teachers
Hmm.
Often people find a place of belonging in ensembles. I think that's my favorite part of leading a choir is that while on the surface we're just a choir and we just sing music together, I know from the lives of the students I interact with that we're more than that.
And some of them, become lifetime friends. And the, some of them have nowhere else to belong here on campus. And I think it was always a place for me to belong to. And so I was drawn into that, inspired by the excellence of Dr. Rediger and the, the standard that was set. I also fell in love with the music and the way that the art helped me to see God in a new way.
As I came into Taylor thinking I was going to go play guitar and sing at a church for the rest of my life. And I appreciate those who do that. I started falling in love with this new form of art and thinking, Oh, I feel. The presence of God in a different way than I have before I see God's manifestation in those around me in a different way and my vision of worship and community, all of those things expanded in my experience in the ensemble. And they have experienced more and more as I've gotten to lead and. So I think I fell in love with the music too.
Tell us some of the ways that Curl music you, that you've seen it minister to people, either to your students or to your audience? Like how does that impact people, in their relationship with God or with un understanding the spiritual world?
I look at my primary role as a mentor to the people in the ensemble. So we learn about things like, Singing in tune and singing with support and cutting off at the right time and, having vowels that are just like everyone else's vowels and all of this sort of mundane musical stuff that makes us sound great. all of that, I think we learn about, selflessness and Working hard for the sake of something bigger than yourself. Learn about creating something, but not being the one in the spotlight. We learn about seeing God in a chord and tunes perfectly. That is so beautiful that it moves our like whole body and soul.
All of those things I think are primarily experienced by those who I get to work with every day. When we tear apart a poem and sometimes like difficult poetry, we will talk about where do we see God in this tragedy or in this person's perspective that is not like our perspective. So I think that's where I first see the passion that I bring to the table is really for the students, but we are a performing ensemble and a performance is a big part of what makes us. Motivated and the ministry we do is really profound and I've been trying to think about how to articulate that I think the word wonder is probably the closest I can come Sometimes we go and present the gospel most often we go and present something that's really beautiful that talks a little bit about Jesus and talks a little bit about the world and hopefully Is able to open someone's heart the feeling joy and beauty and move them a little bit closer to truth and goodness.
And, I think that's how we minister on the average performance day. I'm always looking at our community here at Taylor and thinking, what do we need to talk about as a community? People have a pretty narrow understanding of what choral music can do. And I do too. And I'm always trying to expand that. And actually this is really strange to say from an artistic standpoint, COVID was a gift to us when I took the job, I inherited a bunch of traditions that I loved, and I did, and I wanted to carry on. And then, Of course, COVID came and put a terrible wrench in all of that. We couldn't do any of them and singing looked completely different. And I had to approach a year and think, what can the corral, like, how can I sustain the life of the corral over my first year and without just completely dying and that major constraint out of that was born. ability for the boundaries to drop in my mind and then the need to fulfill the expectation of my predecessor. Could I couldn't, right? Like we couldn't, we had this thing in masks and distance and outside all of these things. And so it helps me to really think creatively about what our community needed.
And that was 2020. And there was a lot of conversation on. race and about, recognizing black voices in our community and in our world. And I knew that conversation in a place like Taylor would be sensitive. It is sensitive everywhere that it's polarizing. And so that's first. 2020, 2020 in the fall, we did an outdoor concert for our community and everyone filled the yard and we sang distanced in masks with lights.
And we did a concert called I've Got a Sound and it was to elevate the black voices and artists and dancers of our community. And we did a lot of music from the gospel tradition and from the spirituals and black composers. And it was really successful. And in the way that. I measured that success was not like, Oh, everyone came and loved it, but that I was able to have conversations with our black students on campus and they felt like they were given a voice that they hadn't been given before.
And that was really transformative for me as a leader to say, okay, like this corral has done a lot of things in its existence, but there are new things to be done. And. We can. So the next year we did a focus on mental health stories on our campus and we, I had people submit anonymous stories and poems and we sang a bunch of songs that were about depression and anxiety like weird Songs that you wouldn't think are written for choir, but they are and they're beautiful and then talked about like, how do you as a Christian navigate your relationship with God in the middle of that it was called in the middle There was dance and art and I am I moved by the creativity of our students and I've learned to just get out of the way a little bit and let us make Really cool, conversations that our community can be a part of.
So we've done a bunch of that and that's another way that I think both our students in the corral, but also our larger community can be invited into the transformative power of God showing up in art.
That is so inspiring and very personal, right? You're speaking to and about, people who. Have these really hard stories and you're singing about them. That's touching people in your community, but without putting a spotlight on them personally, they don't, they're not being like revealed in any way, but that I want to go back to your comment about music being corral music, you said something about the, use the word wonder. I remember when I visited your class, your rehearsal read, I sat and observed for, I don't know, 15 or 20 minutes before I got up for my three minutes of fame on stage. And that was great. That was great. But I remember, I got up on stage and I was, Actually a little speechless Because the music had moved me in ways that I couldn't really Explain, but I knew I felt there was something divine in it and a sense of wonder
it's magic. Choral music is magic. I really think so. I think everyone loves choral music. They just don't know it yet.
Yeah
let alone to let the overwhelming nature of the beauty of the voices flood your senses.
And then combine that with some text that actually speaks to your heart. Like it's everything lining up for an artistic manner to like really move our hearts. And I think so often we associate choir with a high school choir program where you barely learn the words and you get up and everyone's Oh, my son and daughter.
And that's great because we need music education so badly in order to have We need that in order to be able to create really high level art at the college level. But I always tell the chorale like if people walk away and their takeaway was, wow, that was a great choir. Their voices were really great.
That is, We have not accomplished our purpose. It is for them to walk away thinking, Oh, wow. Like I think maybe God is good and there's something true that I've just experienced. And I had a teacher in my master's program at IU, who was a very cynical, skeptic, not a believer. I one time watched him conduct Bach's St.
John Passion, and which is a moving work, sharing, exploring the gospel and the death of Christ, and, Afterward, I talked to him and he had tears in his eyes and he said, in this moment, I believe, and I've never forgotten that because he is not a believer, but the, that beauty, the beauty of that art and it's profound meaning opened up his belief for that moment.
And I think that happens for people I can't explain wonder, but I do think it's a gift. And when it comes, we get to receive it.
It softens the heart towards God in a way that, maybe other things don't. And so it's like God uses this beautiful thing that he's given his creation to, reveal himself,
To us. and connect us in a way that, we wouldn't otherwise maybe be connected. But it, yeah, allows people to experience him.
So
it's so cool.
I think in the West, I shared this in a couple of classes this week, I think in the West, the Western church, we try to figure things out too much and there's this other thing over here where, Christians are in a relationship with someone who is invisible. And so there's mystery like built in automatically from the beginning.
And so wonder. Isn't in the category of trying to figure things out. It's over here and I just love that.
Our whole faith is built on imagination. When you do things like take communion or engage with the Eucharist, like that is, a deep act of imagination and you're imagining God all the time and so the development of our imaginations is crucial for actual good theology and often I think students come to Taylor thinking like my faith is actually quite rational and scientific no it's not It can be And I'm thankful for those who have made a strong case for Christianity.
But if you don't have an imagination, you cannot believe. And to open up those channels of imagination through art is like really to let yourself have the possibility of belief in God.
YEah,
at Taylor. What does it mean to prepare students for like a career and a life of worship?
I don't know. I am learning that I. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to lead the worship arts program. I have such a unique story that I've shared part of, to have entered Taylor thinking like, that's my path is I'm going to go do this worship leading thing. And now, like I said before, I think I'm doing that, but in a way that is so much different than I expected.
And I think so much of my life has been a broadening of my idea of what worship is. And so I. I teach four or five worship arts classes throughout, a major church. progression here. And so much of that is less about teaching skills, though we do teach skills and more about, having a really strong understanding of what it means to habitually form your heart toward God over time through art. And I think that, Many people, I've heard many people say that, like, why would you get a degree in worship arts? Like you could do, most people could do that already. I'd say a good majority of churches would not expect a person that they hire as a worship leader to have a degree in worship. A lot of times people get hired right out of high school.
And I think that there's not a lot of expectation for training. Also, I think most of the students here at Taylor. Whether they would say it out loud or not would think that they're experts in worship because they've been doing it We don't
Mm hmm. have any actual framework for conversation about it Mm. have these different ideas about what it is and what it means And so as I think about like how to form a person through a degree I want them to be able to go out and articulate that they are forming You Congregations, they're forming hearts with a primary practiced theology that is not the same as a sermon, but it's actually probably more emotionally deep than a sermon. And it's something that's, carried further and longer and more, embodied than just sitting and listening. And we would never say that about a preacher, that a preacher needs no training, right? We Would expect that, but yet this person who's responsible for forming our liturgies that like are the things that actually go deep within us that we carry and practice, we have no expectation for at all. And, that's become more and more amazing to me, particularly in evangelicalism, because of the nature of how we've viewed worship in a very consumeristic way. Way. And when that all worship is, you don't really need the theological training, but when you think of worship as actually formative in our lives and forming our primary theology, of course, we need training.
And I don't know, that's a sort of long winded answer to your question, but, I've become more and more convinced that the church needs people who understand the theology of worship and that can lead us well. and formatively and not just who can go up and play the song.
Yeah, it sounds like a really holistic view of worship rather than the narrow view of worship that we're so used to when we think about worship music or conventional worship music, played in many of our churches. Because if look up on Spotify worship music, it is like generally just one type of music.
And it's not really the whole picture.
No. And I try not to bring a great degree of cynicism into the classroom because I believe that God is alive and at work through contemporary worship music. And I like a lot of contemporary worship songs and I'm really thankful for the way that has brought to life a lot of people's hearts and drawn them toward God.
The problem is that. And this is cynical probably, but so much of contemporary Christianity has sold their soul to consumerism because it. works. It works. And I can say in the West in particular, people come, people are satisfied and it feels relevant and it's not super relevant. Like it doesn't speak to the reality of our lives all the time.
It's just one narrow way of connecting with God. And we miss out on so much theologically, artistically, communally, we think of worship, we think of Hillsong and Elevation and Upper Room and all these people who have created music that's really good and has good theology for the most part.
But that is. Made our experience in worship, just like an me and God in a dark room with loud music. It's completely disregarded the congregational voice the communal experience of Doing the work of the people together and I don't disregard it, but I challenge students to go beyond it I think it's been successful, but it's not super flashy.
Like it's hard to advertise my program. It's not like something that looks good on a website. Like we're going to deconstruct your view of worship and
Yeah.
I'm here and you won't think of your church in the same way anymore.
Yeah. So I, in my church, I was at a worship meeting. It was like a worship night and up front, they had, an artist, a painter with an easel and painting, this thing from scratch. And that was to go along with the music. And that got me thinking,
wow. Okay. There's music, maybe some painting. Do you have an example or two of what it might look like for there to be a larger broader corporate worship experience Inside or outside of a building or church, whatever what could that look like?
Earlier I was talking about how COVID totally transformed my view of the corral. And I think that sometimes we need to let go of our expectations or be forced out of the box that we think we're supposed to live into from a structural or even artistic standpoint in order to actually look right in front of us, to see who we are.
And that's, I think what happened for me as the corral leader is like, Oh, I actually have been thinking about how to continue what my predecessor gave to me rather than looking at the people in front of me and what we all need and have to bring to the table. And suddenly like my role was transformed.
And it actually was more honoring to her. Because I let her do her thing. And I'm doing mine in a way that is like honoring to the way, to the work that God has put in front of us. And I think that churches can do that too. I don't have a prescription per se, but I think that most churches are filled with people with really good ideas and they can look around and say, this would mean something to our community.
And again, to go back to the consumerism model. Like we are basically fed new worship music from four or five main sources, and we take it and we use it and then we wait for the next thing. And it's all coming from somewhere else. And that somewhere else is actually making a lot of money. On our spiritual behalf. Great. Like we'll celebrate that, but in front of you are all these people who could make something really beautiful, whether it's art or whether it's some sort of creative communal activity, or whether it's a song, That's maybe that someone wants to sing a special music, which we've rejected because it was awkward, right?
There are so many ways that we have tried to make our churches fit into the megachurch model When every church is a megachurch and we've lost the sense of just looking in front of us like right now we're doing the thing on scripture presentation. How we honor scripture and it's reading out loud and bring it to life in the church.
And so I gave them a few examples of, something that my church has done where they move around during the scripture. And it's not an acting out. It's not really drama, but it's. I did a livening of the scriptural text and I said, this is just an idea. So every we have class twice a week. So every class, someone's in charge of a scripture presentation and sometimes they bring friends and sometimes they use class members, but it's interactive and it's casting light on.
What we're doing as we interpret scripture out loud, and that's been an artistic process, and some of them are dumb and don't work, and some of them are really profound. And I love that exploration process as we Kind of figure it out together.
So Reed, I think you probably know one collective, we focus on working a lot with people, demographics, people who are often oppressed in different ways. And so that could look like refugees who have really hard trauma stories or, disabled youth who have been abandoned by their families.
Just a variety of people in those contexts. Do you see ways that music in the arts can provide a redemptive dynamic for those people who have really hard life context and situations?
I try to program the corral in places that I think really need to experience beauty or maybe in places where there isn't a lot of beauty. And in a month or so, we're going to the Pendleton Penitentiary, The maximum security prison um, near Indianapolis. And we go through the security and we wear our tuxes and our dresses and we go and give a performance.
And, we've done this several times and it's really profound for us, but I know we can see in their face. Faces and bodies and voices that, this is a, an experience that's really special for them because what we do takes a lot of work. It's not something that we just go throw together. It's something that we've practiced for hours and hours.
And it's a good gift. It's a good gift to give. And so to be able to say, you are the people that we want to give
Yeah.
now I think is humanizing, it is, dignifying, it brings something really profoundly beautiful into a space with not a lot of beauty.
I try to find those spaces because, while I love singing in beautiful cathedrals and.
Spaces that make us sound fantastic, and we do that, I think that the most transformative moments for us as well, or when we get to take that ministry and give that gift in a way that are in a place where it's, Not often received. The world really needs beautiful things, not surface level, beautiful things, but like deeply beautiful. things to the transcendental beauty of God, I think in those spaces, bringing beauty in any form. Is dignifying and humanizing
Yeah.
Music in particular is universal.
And so people can all connect to it in some way. And most people can participate it in a, in some way. And I think that I'm clearly biased toward choir. I love choir. I think that if everyone's saying in a choir, the world would, problems would probably be all solved like that. I don't know if you remember Renee Timby, Carly, did you cross paths with Renee at Taylor? I didn't, but I've since met her and she does work with refugees in Greece and has forms them into a choir. And that is. A transformative act of service for her.
In fact, she got her doctorate in choral conducting just like me and felt that call to that work overseas to use her, talent and ability and gifting. And also the pedigree that she was able to learn in order to open doors and form, a profound missional. community with Syrian refugees in particular.
So I think there are lots of examples of people who give that gift of beauty in those spaces. I often thought of missions as like you go and you build or you take medicine somewhere and I've come to believe that like when the corral travels overseas to do what we would call a mission trip, I used to feel sort of embarrassed about that. But now I see that like. We've developed a gift that we can give to someone.
We're not going and providing them sustenance of the body, but we are providing them wonder for the soul. And sometimes that's the thing that people need.
Yeah, people really need to be ministered to their whole self. So whether that's meeting a physical need, emotional need, spiritual need, they're all valid. And, that's the way that we try to do ministry with one collective in the communities where we work too. And we've also seen arts and music give people a way to process.
Their grief and trauma and express their feelings that maybe they haven't even acknowledged or accepted like feelings that they have, but they can express it through art. And like you said, it crosses cultural boundaries, language boundaries, allows people to connect together. So it's really important in seeing like holistic community transformation is incorporating arts in that process. Reed, I want to quote something that you've said, 📍 📍 📍 you said , Creating art and community has transformative power to unite, teach, and help us engage meaningfully with the mysteries of God and one another. And I think that's something I believe so strongly. I think, we all feel that way. What do you think is so important about the community aspect?
Like not just doing it individually, but doing it together.
Yeah. When I hear the word artist, I usually think Beethoven or Van Gogh or some sort of tortured loner figure from the romantic period, or, or even today you think of, Swift or whatever, like artists who do things on their own. We most often recognize artists who are individuals and have their own brand.
And as I every day get to look at a bunch of artists who choose to do that with one another instead, there's such a deep active like commitment to the place and to the people. There's a giving of the self that's more selfless. I think the result is more profound because just takes so much, effort and concentration and listening and Giving and vulnerability and all those things that form not only our aesthetic sensibility, but also our spiritual sensibilities that like form us into virtuous people, not just good artists. That's the community that I hope to build. Not every artistic community ends up that way. And in fact, some can be quite toxic. My comments about everyone being in a choir and fixing the world's problems. Probably isn't actually true, but I do think it's a profound way to experience one another.
Because you're creating together. There's nothing like a community that comes together to make something and to do it well is just really deeply bonding.
What's something we can take away? I mean, there's a lot of things that I think we've covered today, but what's something that anybody listening could take away from this, how could we kind of apply these ideas to our own worship practices and our own lives?
Mm
God is big and mysterious. I think we can all agree on that. God is bigger than our understanding of God. And we can get to know that more in worship. So whatever your worship practices, expand it, learn something new, find a new liturgy that can move your heart in a different way, listen to someone else who worships differently than you, go to an Orthodox church and smell the incense and think about why that is, has moved people's hearts for generations.
Let art be connected to your worship practice.
Because in so doing that, I think we get a fuller picture of who God is.
I think for those people listening who are feeling that call to ministry and to doing the good work of building up communities and people like don't, just think about what programs you can bring to them. But look at the things and the people in front of you and let people create because people have something to say and allowing people to create together and facilitating and leading that creation is the most profound worship leading I've ever done. I so often think about. Churches doing programming in order to draw people in when really it's look at the people and let them create and help facilitate that creation. And I don't know what that has to look different for different types of people with different passions.
I think people who are not just artists can do that
I love that. In our teams around the world, Reed, they all do discipleship, but almost none of them have discipleship programs. We do it in the context of what the people are like that we are with and we're seeing God move.
And I love what you have brought us today, Reed, and, it's been expanding, expansive for our thinking, my thinking, and I appreciate the time and the thoughts that you've shared here with us today. Thank you very much for joining us.
Thank you for having me on and for being interested in the things that I care about. I appreciate it.
I'm just like looking at Carly, who I haven't seen in years, and really great to see you. And as I look at you, I remember the songs that we sang together and the places we went, right?
That is the thing that we shared together. And after all this time, like I feel such warmth and like joy and able being able to talk to you because I know you get the things that I'm saying on a heart level because we experienced them together in that community is really great to rekindle.
So thanks for thinking of me and for inviting me on.
Yeah. I agree. Wholeheartedly. Those were some of the highlights of my life, honestly,
Yeah.
it really does stick with you.
Yeah,
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#3 Overcoming Bible Burnout Dr. Philip Collins
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 3 | 39 Minutes | Nov 26, 2024
Have you ever opened the Bible, read a passage, and walked away feeling like you didn’t get much out of it? You’re not alone.
Many people struggle with engaging scripture in a way that feels transformative, leaving them frustrated or disconnected. In this episode of Innovate for Good, Dr. Phil Collins, professor at Taylor University and general editor of the Abide Bible, shares how to move beyond simply reading the Bible to truly experiencing it. Learn practical ways to approach scripture that bring it to life, deepen your relationship with Christ, and transform the way you engage with God’s Word. If you’ve ever felt stuck or uninspired, this episode will give you fresh tools and insights to reignite your connection with the Bible.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
How to stop feeling frustrated when reading the Bible
Why scripture might feel dry or disconnected—and how to change that
Practical methods to make the Bible come alive, like journaling and praying scripture
How to engage scripture relationally instead of treating it like a textbook
The key to reading the Bible for transformation, not just information
Why community can unlock deeper understanding and connection with scripture
Simple practices to reignite your passion for God’s Word and experience true spiritual growth
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Dr. Phil Collins is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University and the co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement. As the general editor of the Abide Bible, Dr. Collins has dedicated his career to helping individuals engage deeply with scripture to encounter Christ in a transformative way. With over 25 years of experience in youth ministry and teaching, he brings a wealth of knowledge and a passion for equipping others to make scripture an integral part of their spiritual lives.
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Carley Fortosis (Host): Welcome everyone to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective, a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carley Fortosis, and this is my coworker, Mark Foshager. We work as serving coaches with One Collective.
Today, we have Dr. Phil Collins joining us. He is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement, and the general editor for the Abide Bible. Phil has a real passion for seeing people engage deeply with scripture, and that’s something we’ll be digging into today. Thank you for joining us, Phil, and welcome!
Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you! It’s so good to be with you both.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Wonderful. Before we dive in, Phil, after we finish recording, please stay on the call for a minute or two to let Riverside upload your local audio and video files. It saves the recording directly from each participant’s computer, and then it uploads everything automatically.
Phil Collins (Guest): Got it. That sounds good. I’ll stay on.
Mark Foshager (Host): Have you used Riverside before?
Phil Collins (Guest): No, I haven’t.
Carley Fortosis (Host): It functions pretty much like Zoom. So, Phil, what’s new with you? What have you been up to?
Phil Collins (Guest): Oh, lots! I’m teaching a master’s class right now, just finished three weeks of summer camp, and I’ve been visiting practicum students who are serving in different churches. I’ll actually be heading to Michigan this Sunday to see a couple of them. But the most exciting thing—about three weeks ago, I became a grandfather! And in a few weeks, we’ll have another grandson.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Oh, congratulations! That’s so exciting.
Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you. It is exciting.
Mark Foshager (Host): Are they local or far away?
Phil Collins (Guest): One’s in Milwaukee, and the other is right here in town.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Milwaukee—reminds me you’re from Wisconsin originally, right? Madison?
Phil Collins (Guest): That’s right. I grew up in Madison. My son moved to Milwaukee for a couple of years, and my brother still lives in Madison.
Mark Foshager (Host): Small world! I’m actually from Wauwatosa, which is right next to Milwaukee.
Phil Collins (Guest): That’s where my son is now! He and his family moved there for a couple of years.
Mark Foshager (Host): That’s fantastic. Wauwatosa is such a great place.
Phil Collins (Guest): It is.
Carley Fortosis (Host): My mom is from Madison! I love visiting there. It’s such a fun city with the lakes and vibrant atmosphere.
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. Madison’s a fantastic place to visit.
Carley Fortosis (Host): All right, let’s dive in. Phil, can you share a little about your background? You’ve already mentioned your Wisconsin roots, but tell us more about your ministry and teaching journey.
Phil Collins (Guest): Sure! I started with Youth for Christ in Indiana and Illinois, working in the Chicago area for six and a half years. Before that, I was actually a Youth for Christ kid during high school. Later, I became a youth pastor in Indianapolis for 10 years. Now, I’m in my 26th year teaching full-time at Taylor University.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Aren’t you a Taylor alum as well?
Phil Collins (Guest): I am! It’s been amazing to return to the place where I was a student and now be teaching. At first, it felt a little surreal, but after all these years, it feels like home.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Your bio mentions it was a dream come true to work at Taylor. Was that because of your roots there?
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. My experience as a student at Taylor was transformative. I always thought it would be incredible to teach there someday. I prepared for that opportunity by pursuing further education, and when I was asked to join as an adjunct professor, I jumped at the chance. Step by step, things fell into place, and I’m so grateful for it.
Mark Foshager (Host): You’ve worked with youth for quite some time—as a youth pastor, with Youth for Christ, and now at Taylor. What do you love most about working with students?
Phil Collins (Guest): I love being present during a time of significant transitions. Those moments of change often set the trajectory for someone’s life. It’s inspiring to see students grow, make decisions, and start walking paths that will impact their futures.
Carley Fortosis (Host): I completely agree. My time at Taylor was deeply shaped by professors who invested in me. Their influence has lasted long beyond graduation. I’m sure your students feel the same about you.
Phil Collins (Guest): I hope so. It’s an honor to be part of their lives during such a pivotal time.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Phil, I remember you mentioned a question that deeply impacted you regarding scripture. Can you share more about that and how it influenced your journey?
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. About 15 years ago, I came across a question that stopped me in my tracks: “How do you help someone read the Bible so that they’re transformed?” As someone who had been reading the Bible daily since I was 12, I realized I didn’t have a clear answer. I’d always been told, and told others, that praying and reading your Bible were the keys to spiritual growth. But I never really taught people how to engage with scripture in a way that would truly transform them. That question set me on a journey to explore how scripture could be a catalyst for deep, meaningful change.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Welcome everyone to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective, a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carley Fortosis, and this is my coworker, Mark Foshager. We work as serving coaches with One Collective.Today, we have Dr. Phil Collins joining us. He is a professor of Christian Ministries at Taylor University, co-executive director of the Taylor University Center for Scripture Engagement, and the general editor for the Abide Bible. Phil has a real passion for seeing people engage deeply with scripture, and that’s something we’ll be digging into today. Thank you for joining us, Phil, and welcome!
Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you! It’s so good to be with you both.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Wonderful. Before we dive in, Phil, after we finish recording, please stay on the call for a minute or two to let Riverside upload your local audio and video files. It saves the recording directly from each participant’s computer, and then it uploads everything automatically.
Phil Collins (Guest): Got it. That sounds good. I’ll stay on.
Mark Foshager (Host): Have you used Riverside before?
Phil Collins (Guest): No, I haven’t.
Carley Fortosis (Host): It functions pretty much like Zoom. So, Phil, what’s new with you? What have you been up to?
Phil Collins (Guest): Oh, lots! I’m teaching a master’s class right now, just finished three weeks of summer camp, and I’ve been visiting practicum students who are serving in different churches. I’ll actually be heading to Michigan this Sunday to see a couple of them. But the most exciting thing—about three weeks ago, I became a grandfather! And in a few weeks, we’ll have another grandson.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Oh, congratulations! That’s so exciting.
Phil Collins (Guest): Thank you. It is exciting.
Mark Foshager (Host): Are they local or far away?
Phil Collins (Guest): One’s in Milwaukee, and the other is right here in town.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Milwaukee—reminds me you’re from Wisconsin originally, right? Madison?
Phil Collins (Guest): That’s right. I grew up in Madison. My son moved to Milwaukee for a couple of years, and my brother still lives in Madison.
Mark Foshager (Host): Small world! I’m actually from Wauwatosa, which is right next to Milwaukee.
Phil Collins (Guest): That’s where my son is now! He and his family moved there for a couple of years.
Mark Foshager (Host): That’s fantastic. Wauwatosa is such a great place.
Phil Collins (Guest): It is.
Carley Fortosis (Host): My mom is from Madison! I love visiting there. It’s such a fun city with the lakes and vibrant atmosphere.
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. Madison’s a fantastic place to visit.
Carley Fortosis (Host): All right, let’s dive in. Phil, can you share a little about your background? You’ve already mentioned your Wisconsin roots, but tell us more about your ministry and teaching journey.
Phil Collins (Guest): Sure! I started with Youth for Christ in Indiana and Illinois, working in the Chicago area for six and a half years. Before that, I was actually a Youth for Christ kid during high school. Later, I became a youth pastor in Indianapolis for 10 years. Now, I’m in my 26th year teaching full-time at Taylor University.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Aren’t you a Taylor alum as well?
Phil Collins (Guest): I am! It’s been amazing to return to the place where I was a student and now be teaching. At first, it felt a little surreal, but after all these years, it feels like home.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Your bio mentions it was a dream come true to work at Taylor. Was that because of your roots there?
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. My experience as a student at Taylor was transformative. I always thought it would be incredible to teach there someday. I prepared for that opportunity by pursuing further education, and when I was asked to join as an adjunct professor, I jumped at the chance. Step by step, things fell into place, and I’m so grateful for it.
Mark Foshager (Host): You’ve worked with youth for quite some time—as a youth pastor, with Youth for Christ, and now at Taylor. What do you love most about working with students?
Phil Collins (Guest): I love being present during a time of significant transitions. Those moments of change often set the trajectory for someone’s life. It’s inspiring to see students grow, make decisions, and start walking paths that will impact their futures.
Carley Fortosis (Host): I completely agree. My time at Taylor was deeply shaped by professors who invested in me. Their influence has lasted long beyond graduation. I’m sure your students feel the same about you.
Phil Collins (Guest): I hope so. It’s an honor to be part of their lives during such a pivotal time.
Carley Fortosis (Host): Phil, I remember you mentioned a question that deeply impacted you regarding scripture. Can you share more about that and how it influenced your journey?
Phil Collins (Guest): Absolutely. About 15 years ago, I came across a question that stopped me in my tracks: “How do you help someone read the Bible so that they’re transformed?” As someone who had been reading the Bible daily since I was 12, I realized I didn’t have a clear answer. I’d always been told, and told others, that praying and reading your Bible were the keys to spiritual growth. But I never really taught people how to engage with scripture in a way that would truly transform them. That question set me on a journey to explore how scripture could be a catalyst for deep, meaningful change.
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#2 Why Hearing Scripture Matters
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 2 | 41 Minutes | Nov 12, 2024
Have you ever wondered if you’re missing something when you read the Bible? In today’s fast-paced world, many of us rely on written texts for spiritual guidance, but what if there’s a richer, deeper way to engage with scripture?
In this episode of the Innovate for Good Podcast, we’re talking with Dr. D. Brent Sandy, a professor and author who believes hearing scripture orally can be transformative. Dr. Sandy explains the importance of returning to the ancient practice of oral communication and reveals what we may miss if we only read the Bible. Whether you’re a pastor, a student, or someone looking to deepen your faith, this conversation uncovers fresh strategies for engaging with scripture in powerful, innovative ways.
In this Episode:
• How oral scripture can deepen your spiritual engagement
• What we miss when we only read the Bible
• Why oral traditions bring scripture to life in powerful new ways
• The cultural and historical significance of hearing scripture
• Practical strategies for incorporating oral scripture in daily practice
• How oral scripture can transform church services and personal study
• The role of emotional content in understanding biblical texts
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Dr. D. Brent Sandy is a professor, author, and biblical scholar with decades of experience teaching Greek and Bible at institutions like Grace College and Wheaton College. He has authored seven books and is widely respected for his expertise in the cultural and historical contexts of scripture. Dr. Sandy’s work emphasizes the power of oral traditions in biblical interpretation, and he is passionate about helping people engage with the Bible in fresh, transformative ways. His latest book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord: What We Miss If We Only Read the Bible, explores the significance of hearing scripture and its impact on personal and communal faith.
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Carly Fortosis: Welcome back to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective. This is a podcast where we chat with people who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carly Fortosis, and I’m here with my coworker and fellow One Collective Serving Coach, Mark Fasshager. Today we have a pretty special guest joining us—actually, a friend and contact of one of our own field leaders with One Collective. We’re joined by Dr. D. Brent Sandy. Brent has taught Greek and Bible as a professor at both Grace College and Wheaton College over the years, and he’s authored seven books. We’re thrilled that you could make the time to chat with us today, so thank you, Brent.
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: This is fantastic. I’m glad for the opportunity.
Carly Fortosis: Awesome. Well, welcome!
Mark Fasshager: Great to have you with us! We’d love to hear a bit about your background.
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Okay. I’ll start back when I was 10 years old. That’s when a major change occurred in my life and the life of my family. I was fortunate to be raised in a Christian family. My father had an excavating and grading business—bulldozers, dump trucks, backhoes, that kind of stuff. He was one to push me to do things I didn’t think I was quite ready for, like even driving his bulldozers sometimes. But when I was 10, my father was 36, and he sold the business. He decided he wanted to go to a Christian college, go to seminary, and become a pastor. So, we left Pennsylvania where we lived and moved out here to Indiana to go to Grace College. That was such an impact on me, leaving behind a big brick home and moving into a cement block house that we built ourselves—really scraping by with little income. So, I started college and seminary at Grace College at 36. Greek was my first class. About the same time, ministry emphasized something called full-time Christian service. Seeing what my father was up to, being challenged by the Holy Spirit, I decided to go into full-time Christian service as well. This led me to become a primarily Christian teacher, though I did serve as a pastor for seven years.
Mark Fasshager: Wow, that’s incredible. Where were you a pastor?
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: In Roanoke, Virginia. I also taught at some other places in addition to Grace and Wheaton. I was an adjunct professor at a college in Roanoke while I was pastoring there, which was kind of between some of my teaching opportunities.
Carly Fortosis: That’s great. So, you clearly have this passion for helping people understand the Bible. What moved you in that direction? Was there something that triggered that passion?
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: That’s a good question. I’m not totally sure, but part of it was seeing people misinterpret scripture. That really troubled me. We don’t want to get God’s word wrong. I decided to major in Greek in college, and over time, I realized that I knew the words in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, but didn’t know much about the culture. The culture really helps tell us what the words mean. So, I saw a lack in that area, and it’s been my emphasis ever since—how to understand scripture in light of its original culture.
Mark Fasshager: That makes a lot of sense. So, in your most recent book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord, you focus on the importance of hearing scripture orally rather than just reading it. Can you tell us more about that?
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Yes, so I’m very interested in cultural backgrounds. We often push our modern culture onto scripture rather than letting the culture of scripture shape our understanding. It’s easy to do that, but people in ancient times didn’t have the option of reading scripture. They heard it. They experienced it as a dramatic performance, not just words on a page. So, when Paul told Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of scripture, I believe he meant it to be dynamic, dramatic, and powerful. Today, in many churches, we just read the Bible without much thought or preparation, and it doesn’t have the same impact. We need to let God’s word speak powerfully in our lives, and one way to do that is through hearing it presented effectively.
Mark Fasshager: I love that idea. I’ve never really thought of it that way.
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: It’s definitely something I feel needs more attention. I’m trying to make this accessible to ordinary people, not just scholars. Scholars have been noting how oral scripture was, but it’s not filtering down into churches in a meaningful way. So, I wanted to write a book that could impact regular believers and help them understand the power of oral scripture.
Carly Fortosis: That’s fascinating! In your book, you mention how oral communication can actually bring scripture to life in a way that reading alone doesn’t. Can you expand on that?
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Yes, oral communication brings out the emotional content of scripture. When we read scripture, we focus on words on a page. But when we hear it, we can be impacted by tone, rhythm, and emotion. The spoken word has power, and when we engage with it in a more dynamic way, it becomes more alive and relevant. For example, when I present scripture to a group, I encourage them to think about how to present it so it speaks powerfully to a congregation. It’s a transformative process because they meditate on the passage and figure out how to emphasize its key points and emotions.
Mark Fasshager: That sounds amazing. It reminds me of discovery Bible studies, where people retell and reflect on scripture in a group. It’s not just about reading; it’s about interacting with the text in a way that makes it meaningful and personal.
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Exactly! That’s why oral scripture telling is so powerful. It’s not just about passing on information—it’s about making scripture come alive in a way that speaks to people’s hearts and minds. This can really change how people experience and understand the Bible.
Carly Fortosis: Where can people learn more about this topic or read your book?
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Hear Ye the Word of the Lord is available wherever books are sold. I also recommend The Return of Oral Hermeneutics by Tom Stefan, which dives into the concept of interpreting the Bible orally. And there’s Devote Yourself to Public Reading of Scripture, which is especially helpful for churches.
Mark Fasshager: Great recommendations. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today, Brent.
Carly Fortosis: Yes, thank you! It’s been such a fascinating conversation, and we appreciate the time you’ve given us.
Dr. D. Brent Sandy: Thank you both! It’s been a pleasure.
Carly Fortosis: And to our listeners, don’t forget to check out Brent’s book, Hear Ye the Word of the Lord, and explore how oral scripture can deepen your spiritual engagement. Thanks for tuning in to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective.
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#1 Dr. Michael Sherr: Integrating Faith in Your Daily Work
Engage with professors and nonprofit leaders as we bridge the gap between academic research and practical ministry to drive real-world impact.
Episode 1 | 45 Minutes | Oct 29, 2024
What does it look like when faith informs not just beliefs but the way someone teaches, counsels, and leads?
In this episode of Innovate for Good, Dr. Michael Sherr, Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University, shares how his faith shapes his approach to teaching, counseling, and leading. You’ll gain practical insights on bringing your whole self to work, navigating challenges with resilience, and staying grounded in purpose and faith. Whether you’re in healthcare, education, or any helping profession, Dr. Sherr’s story offers down-to-earth advice on integrating faith with work in a way that’s authentic, impactful, and deeply fulfilling.
In this Episode You’ll Learn:
Practical ways to integrate faith authentically into your work, regardless of your profession.
How to bring your whole self to work and navigate challenges with resilience and purpose.
The unique role of faith in professions that serve others, like healthcare and education.
Dr. Sherr’s personal strategies for staying grounded and fulfilled amidst career demands.
How a faith-centered approach can enhance your impact on those you serve.
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Dr. Michael Sherr is the Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University, where he brings decades of experience in social work, research, and education. A Jewish believer who came to faith in Jesus as a young adult, Dr. Sherr’s journey informs his work as an educator and mentor. He has authored over 80 publications, including four books, with his fifth, Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare, releasing soon. As the editor-in-chief of two scholarly journals, Dr. Sherr is passionate about guiding the next generation of social workers and healthcare professionals to integrate faith with practice in a way that is both authentic and impactful.
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Carly Fortosis: Welcome to the Innovate for Good podcast with One Collective. This is a podcast where we chat with educators who are making a difference in their fields. My name is Carly Fortosis, and I’m here with my coworker and fellow One Collective serving coach, Mark Fasshager. Today, we are joined by Dr. Michael Sherr.
Mark Fasshager: Dr. Sherr serves as Associate Dean and Professor of Social Work at Cedarville University in Ohio. He’s also the editor-in-chief of two scholarly journals, The Journal of Human Behavior in the Social Environment and Home Healthcare Services Quarterly. Dr. Sherr has 80 publications, including four books, with a fifth releasing early next year titled Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare. It’s a big part of his story. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Sherr.
Dr. Michael Sherr: Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me.
Carly Fortosis: As Mark mentioned, you come from a Jewish background, and you’ve shared with us that it was quite conservative. Can you talk about how that influenced you, especially in your journey to embrace Jesus?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Sure. When we talk about “conservative” in the Jewish world, it can mean something different from how Christians or Protestants interpret it. Generally, there are three broad categories in American Judaism. Reform Judaism is more liberal and progressive, with female rabbis, for instance. Conservative Judaism sits between Reform and Orthodox; Orthodox is the most traditional, where men and women don’t sit together, and women wear head coverings.
I grew up in a large, patriarchal Jewish family that immigrated from Germany and Austria. I went to Hebrew school for ten years on Long Island, New York. I wasn’t a great student and got into a lot of trouble. In Hebrew school, they separated us into groups: one for those who were expected to become rabbis and another for those who might go into more common professions. I was in the back of that second class, always causing problems, questioning everything.
Fast forward—I married young at 19 to a woman who was a believer in Jesus Christ. Coming from a family with a lot of strife and inner conflict, I saw something different in her family. They didn’t have much financially, but they had peace and joy. She didn’t “Bible thump,” but I could see her faith in action. When my mother became ill and later passed away, it raised big questions for me. I wondered, “Is God real?” She bought me my first Bible, and I began reading it every day. That’s been my anchor.
Mark Fasshager: Coming to faith in Jesus sounds like it required a conscious rejection of your upbringing. Did you feel that way?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, it did. I believe God makes the first move in drawing us to Him. For me, it’s a constant reflection: Is my faith real? If it is, it must take preeminence in my life, as Colossians 1 says. That affects everything I do. Even when I preach or interact with colleagues, I want to know if it’s real for them, too, or just a religious practice. That cost me many relationships early on. Embracing Jesus was not only about freedom in grace but also about giving up everything for truth.
Carly Fortosis: I love how you talk about “is it real?” You wrote about this in your book on becoming a Christian educator in social work, and it struck me. Can you tell us more about that?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Sure. I was finishing my PhD at the University of South Carolina, and I had a lot of pride. I knew I was good at research, writing, and statistical analysis. I helped students finish their PhDs. I was at a conference facilitating a discussion with professors about faith and learning, and an undergraduate student in the room started crying. She shared that a classmate had recently died, and her professors hadn’t taken time to grieve with the students, simply referring them to the chapel.
Hearing her story humbled me. Here I was, new to the Christian world, realizing that even those raised in the church could miss the mark. I didn’t want to spend my life as a professor thinking I was a good Christian educator only to be seen as disconnected. That moment launched me into five years of research on integrating faith and learning in the classroom.
Mark Fasshager: So, that moment sparked a whole research project?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, five years of research. When I began at Baylor University, I received a grant to study whether faculty were following Wesleyan principles. I wanted to develop a tool for faculty to assess their development as Christian educators. But there was concern at the university that this tool could be used to evaluate faculty performance, infringing on academic freedom. Ultimately, I chose not to pursue the study in that way, but I wrote a book on it instead.
Carly Fortosis: That’s impressive. The level of commitment you bring to this is unique. It’s easy to fall into comfort in academia, yet you push for more.
Dr. Michael Sherr: Academia, even in Christian universities, often incentivizes self-promotion. There’s pressure to publish and build a reputation, which can become an idol. For me, my focus is integrating faith into every facet of life—not just checking boxes. When students see authenticity in faculty, it leaves an impact.
Mark Fasshager: I’m curious—how do you integrate faith with your students practically?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Integration happens naturally. I bring my walk with God into the classroom authentically, not as a “Sunday best.” There are assignments in some classes where students open scripture and think through issues, but it’s not just an academic exercise. My own approach is organic; I spend time in God’s word not because of obligation but because it grounds me. I want my students to experience that as well, especially if they’ve grown up with scripture as just another area of study.
Carly Fortosis: I relate to that—breaking free from the sense of obligation to read the Bible. Experiencing a genuine thirst for scripture has changed everything for me.
Dr. Michael Sherr: Yes, absolutely. In Judaism, there’s a prayer for everything. You’re always following rules. Why would I put myself under that when I’m living under grace? There’s freedom in that, and it’s transformative.
Mark Fasshager: Let’s talk about your upcoming book, Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare. You ask if it makes a difference if healthcare providers are Christian. Why does that matter?
Dr. Michael Sherr: That’s a central question in the book. Healthcare professionals deal with life-and-death situations daily. Should it matter if a person taking your blood is a Christian? Yes, because they represent God’s grace in those moments. Healthcare workers remind people of their mortality, often serving as “deacons of society.” They may be the closest encounter some people have with Christ. So, yes, faith matters in those interactions.
Carly Fortosis: What is the purpose of the Christian healthcare worker, according to scripture?
Dr. Michael Sherr: To point everyone toward eternal glory and provide evidence that God is real. In practical terms, scripture teaches behaviors like comforting others, offering forgiveness, and enduring challenges daily as vessels of God’s light. That’s how we show up every day without burning out.
Mark Fasshager: Would you say this applies beyond healthcare to other Christian helpers in the world?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Absolutely. These principles apply to all Christians, but healthcare professionals are on the frontlines. They see people’s deepest pain and struggle. It’s why a strong, authentic relationship with God is essential—it can’t be shallow when you’re on the frontlines.
Carly Fortosis: What practical strategies do you suggest for staying grounded in faith?
Dr. Michael Sherr: Nothing groundbreaking, but essential. Commit to ongoing training—both professionally and spiritually. Be active in prayer. I encourage my clients to pray regularly, truly connecting with God. Also, maintain perspective—our job is to abide, not strive. When overwhelmed, remember it’s God’s work, not ours. And rest—take breaks, and surround yourself with fellow believers who can speak truth into your life.
Mark Fasshager: Your advice resonates deeply. A strong faith community can make a huge difference.
Dr. Michael Sherr: Absolutely. My men’s discipleship group is a lifeline. We hold each other accountable, grounded in the truth. Christian fellowship, mission work, and balancing work with rest are all crucial.
Carly Fortosis: Thank you so much, Dr. Sherr. Can you tell us when your book will be released?
Dr. Michael Sherr: It’s expected in January 2025, so just a few months away. Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare will be available where books are sold.
Mark Fasshager: We’re grateful for your time and insights, Dr. Sherr. Your work and commitment to integrating faith with education are inspiring.
Dr. Michael Sherr: Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what God has done in my life and what He’s capable of doing in anyone’s life. All for His glory.
Carly Fortosis: Thank you again, Dr. Sherr!
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Scripture and Scrubs: A Christian Calling to Healthcare by Dr. Michael Sherr (Coming January 2025)
Book Recommendation: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero
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