EP 5: Torn Between Serving and My Mental Health

Episode 5 | 51 Minutes | Nov 19, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You want to serve cross-culturally, but maybe you have anxiety, addiction, or even trauma in your story. Does that disqualify you?

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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In this episode of Torn Between, we talk with a licensed therapist named Bobby. He’s a One Collective senior leader, and we chat about what actually happens to your mental health when you move overseas—and how you can prepare for it.

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What You’ll Learn:

• How ignoring your mental health before moving overseas can impact your ministry and relationships

• The hidden challenges of loneliness, culture shock, and loss of support systems

• What One Collective looks for in healthy, teachable team members

• The difference between being imperfect and being defensive

• How holistic care—mental, spiritual, physical, and social—keeps you thriving long-term

• Episode Transcript

  Hey - guys, welcome back.

  Thanks for joining in episode four of the Torn Between Podcast.

  Today we’re talking about what the heck you would actually do as a missionary.

  Right. Yes. That’s it.

  That’s the blunt way to put it.

  But we’re gonna dive into what it actually means to build a resume —

  What does it look like to have a clear job role,

  how you can like actually develop your professional skills

  doing cross-cultural work and service work.

  So, hopefully we can get over some of the misconceptions.

  Yes.

  What — what a missionary does.

  Which I think part of it is, a lot of ‘em are actually kind of true,

  but at One Collective, they’re quite different. 📍

  Yeah. Alright.

  This is — we’ll start with the — I’m torn between…

  Yeah.

  Yeah. Something where I am now.

  And then the idea of cross-cultural service work.

  That has been a theme in this series.

  Michael’s been torn between which —

  which is genuinely true.

  Am I playing it up a little bit? Yeah.

  But also it is true.

  And I have been genuinely learning so much from you guys.

  I appreciate that.

  So this series has been fun.

  That’s awesome.

  So here’s the problem that I need your guys’ help with.

  I — as I’ve been talking about — considering Spain, right?

  But also I have this job where I literally make these podcasts for One Collective,

  you know, among the many other things that I do.

  And so the thing that is holding me up from the idea of moving abroad is:

  I have a pretty clear job role here.

  I have clear income.

  I have clear skills that I’m developing at One Collective,

  and I feel pretty good about them.

  Learning CRMs, about management leadership. All these things. In my conversations and thoughts about moving to Spain and doing cross-cultural service work, is that I would go there and I would just run a Bible study or just live with people and be like, oh, how are you today?

  Can I evangelize to you? And,

  then like our

  you know, prince, uh, well I hope that's, matching shirts that also like

  Athea

  Athea or the Pilgrim house. Like, come join us and meet the love of tv, which is all great and good, but I'm playing some of the misconceptions. Sure.

  But,

  I actually, my fear though is I would move here and I wouldn't have a real job.

  Mm-hmm. It

  be a real job. I wouldn't be developing my professional self anymore. And then that would hinder me future if I ever wanted to move back or any, into any other professional field. And, we've talked about this a little bit. I know it's not true, but that still is my fear, right? So how do I get over that fear and

  what is

  what is

  the truth about cross-cultural service work?

  Where does that fear come from? Because I'm trying to, I know our teams that work around the world. I know many of our people, a couple hundred people who work around the world with us, they are using their skills.

  I'm just curious, where does your fear about that come from? Yeah, I think it comes from the idea that in America I have a pretty good job and I'm a videographer, which has some almost prestige to it sometimes. Like, yeah, I get to travel, I get to make videos pretty cool, I guess. And my fear is that I would move here and my understanding is as a missionary, you just sit down and chat with people.

  People,

  Or so you'd give up all that you've worked for. I would give up all that I worked for and would then just become a service oriented person. Which is not bad at all. Like people need other people to sit down with their mental love and spend time with them. And we do that in a lot of places in collective, but loving and serving are things that you're less drawn to than photography.

  Just to throw it out there.

  out there. Yeah. I'm

  Not about loving people. No, no. I feel like I have hard skills that I really value and spend time developing and I feel like I would not have the opportunity to use those, even though I think those would be a way I can bless and serve people there. Yeah. And I'm learning and I think trying to learn

  like

  what would, would look like to use those skills cross culturally.

  Well, I think this would be a good time to discuss a few of those myths or misconceptions, that come up and inform your thinking and contribute to those fears that you're having. Let's brainstorm. What are some common myths that people might have when, anticipating starting this process and what could keep them from moving forward?

  And what is the actual truth? What's the reality like both with one collective and maybe just in general?

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So misconception number one, like I just go abroad and I run a Bible study or like an after school program, and I just sit around and like host people or something.

  And this might be a deep rabbit trail. So are you guys okay if we really dive in and tear apart the idea of missions work a little bit? The title? Yeah.

  Sure. Okay. Every time I've heard a missionary, talk to my church or talk, be like at church camp, they're like, the message oftentimes is there's this number of unreached people in this country or whatever, and they

  need

  you to

  To alize to them. to them.

  But also you take it a step further, missionaries I feel like are

  What I see feel about them is they ask for people's money and then they go and they just hang out in this other country.

  And I'm like, what are you actually doing though? And it doesn't feel like it's necessarily an effective

  use

  of funds.

  And this is coming from you, which is like a more. Like entrepreneurship, business minded person. Yeah. Because I see I'm a little skeptical. Yeah. Very skeptical. Maybe even like where, when I was growing up I was like, oh, I'm all about this. And then I was like, alright, no, let's nuance this a lot more now.

  And sometimes I feel like missionaries are a waste of money.

  Mm-hmm.

  I'm gonna take your side on this question a little bit because it sounds like some of your perceptions are coming from actual data points that you have seen Yeah. And observed and heard. And so you naturally would be in this place today where you're skeptical Yeah.

  Somewhat, right? Yeah, absolutely.

  Yeah.

  think also historically, as you've seen it presented to you. It may be just a little tiny fraction of the reality of what's actually happening, but the way it's communicated might not have been effective. Mm-hmm. And really rallying up interest and attracting people to the work because not communicating, things that would actually speak to future missionaries or future goers that would resonate with them and get them to want to join.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So I think a communication piece and communicating ineffectively actually informs your misconception too Yeah.

  percent Yeah.

  So years ago I studied accounting and my favorite course was Accounting 1 0 1, which is like the first. Freshman year. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. But then as the years went on through my major, I didn't like it, but I ended up with an accounting degree, became a CPA and I and my wife and two kids, we went to what used to be Zaire, it's the Democratic Republic of Congo now.

  And I was a treasurer at a medical center

  In Northeastern Zaire.

  Okay.

  So I was using a skill that I had learned, disliked, but I had learned, and I was using it for a very specific needed, role at this medical center that had over 100 beds. It was a significant place. Wow.

  Wow.

  That's what I did.

  And I think that, there are numerous examples of people who use their hard skills in mission type work. And service around the world. Yeah. That's just one. Yeah. Would you say this is true about one collective that, we have a lot of open positions on different teams. Would you say those positions are kind of representative of an actual job posting, like requirements, responsibilities and like expectations?

  Yes. I would say that, and that's how we encourage our leaders around the world to think of their open opportunities. So the first step for them is evaluating in the community where there might be a need that isn't currently being met. A need that, is strategic for their vision for where this.

  Community should be going.

  And that yeah, isn't present in the community right now. And that's how one collective can have a deeper impact and get further involved in the ministry there. And so then the need translates to an opportunity of

  how

  we can promote this, and how we can attract people to this type of role.

  And then the opportunity, I think it shaped around the actual applicant that we're in conversation with, that we're talking about

  their

  unique set of skills, their experiences, their training, their interests and hobbies and passions.

  And

  take those open roles, those open opportunities, and we combine them with what we know about the applicant.

  And then we create a job description that fits both the needs on the field and. The skills and what the person can offer that's coming to one collective. Mm-hmm. I see. That is actually getting at one of my misconceptions, I think. Okay. Which for example, I graduated and I was thinking about going like long transitions

  and

  so I graduated and then we were chatting, mark, you were my mobilizer.

  This was a really conversation between us, but my expectation is somebody like me graduates, you're like, I want to do this thing. And then the, the organization is like, great, another body, where do we want to just throw it up? Instead of being like, no, we actually have a need for your

  specific characteristics

  and skills and let us strategically place you.

  I feel like my misconception is that isn't ever done any strategic element to it. Which is not true. I want collective. Do you feel like. You have a sense of pressure, that you have to make this decision and then stick with this decision for a certain period of time. 'cause I think that's another common myth that you're deciding that you're gonna do missions and that's the only then pathway forward.

  And there's no room for change. There's no room to pivot to something different, whether that's in the mission space or outside of the mission space.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. You can't change your mind. Once you've made that commitment. You're locked in and you're locked in. So life. Do you feel any pressure like that?

  Okay.

  Okay.

  I maybe not exactly that I'm locked into life, but what makes me fear that is the idea that I will join this missions, and then I will have this weird gap in my resume. And then after that, I'll become less 📍 📍 📍 idealOf a hire to an employer. Interesting. And so reintegrating back into the professional space, my expectation is it would be challenging.

  So

  So in your mind, the professional development stops when you go to the field.

  Which is not

  True.

  I think personal development would happen because you country. Sure. Country and everything. You're gonna learn so much. Yeah. Which is good, but also I'm like, I care about the professional development.

  Yeah. Which you guys are saying does happen. It does happen. It doesn't have to be a gap in your resume. It can actually be an asset in your resume. Okay. But you have

  international

  Tell me about how

  how

  Absolutely. Both cross-cultural work

  can

  an asset in my resume. You will be able to present to your prospective employers after returning back home that you have lived in another culture.

  You have perhaps learned a different language and spoken that language. You will have interacted with people who are outside of the conventional, demographic from where you're from or from your hometown, whatever.

  Yeah.

  It just gives you a depth and a breadth of, I realize these are all personal and not so much the professional side.

  Yeah. Encouraging my misperception.

  Oh wow.

  Okay. Because you're saying all you would have to speak to your new employer is personal developments. Again, I'm not hearing that there's professional development in the field. Well, yeah. Okay. So in addition to cultural intelligence, cultural awareness in a global economy, which is actually really important to know how. To connect with people

  from

  different backgrounds around the world. Yeah. It depends what you'd be doing on the field and if that would further your skills and your professional development.

  And so if you chose something and if an organization, like one Collective had an opportunity for you to actually use those hard skills and contribute to the work that a team is doing in a particular community, I think that, you could actually grow in your hard skills depending on Yeah. What it is that you're doing.

  So in this example, if you were a videographer, on the field, you might be the only videographer on that team. So you may or may not be mentored by somebody who's an employee of the organization, who's, been doing it for long. Than you, but you'd probably develop content that then would be used in multiple ways throughout the organization.

  It could be part of your portfolio going forward.

  Yeah.

  It could be something where you learn to see things through a different lens. Maybe you collaborate with other videographers from other organizations who are also sharpening their skills. Maybe you'd have a chance to present at conferences in different parts of the world.

  Maybe it would just open up new professional doors that you wouldn't even have here because of your location or because of, just the new opportunities you have there. Yeah. No, that's really helpful here, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive into

  a

  a case study different than the one you just gave me.

  Okay. But I wanna get really concrete about this. Yeah. So imagine I just graduated and I got

  a

  nutritionist degree, and I want to do cross-cultural work. Like,

  What

  would that look like for me to use that hard skill, on a day-to-day basis with one collective? Yeah. So if you were going to use that skill here in the us maybe you'd have, maybe you'd be affiliated with the practice or maybe you'd have a set of clients and maybe you're helping them with diet or lifestyle changes.

  And it's a pretty specific schedule that you maintain and you know what you expect and you know who you're working with. If you're gonna apply that in a community that's developing, that's under-resourced, that doesn't have the same access to healthcare that we do here,

  I think then that you're

  able

  apply that in a way that's really meaningful and life changing to people who may not understand how to.

  F properly feed their families. Maybe they don't understand what good nutrition can mean for disease prevention. Maybe they don't understand what maternal nutrition can look like to properly feed a pregnant woman, before they, give birth and nourish the baby. So I think nutrition education is something that is lacking in a lot of parts of the world.

  That with proper training and investing in people's growth and development and education, this can actually be a really life changing set of skills that you can apply in a very meaningful way.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. And in the locations where we work, Michael, our focus is always on people who are more on the margins.

  Okay.

  And so we're gonna be working with people who don't have. Access to the kinds of healthcare and clean water

  Yeah.

  healthy food sources and resources that a typical person in the US would have. So a nutritionist in another country working with people who are on the margins, that would be a real useful skill in that setting.

  Yeah.

  I'm just now remembering actually a story that's really related to this that I think one collector put out right before I joined sometime. And it was about in Ecuador, about them working with the that are on the margins that are

  Really in poverty there.

  'Cause malnutrition was a huge problem there. Mm-hmm. It's, and actually having somebody there to diagnose that and then recommend, I don't if they're giving food out something.

  That.

  I remember that being very specific.

  Hearing

  That from the collective.

  So, I mean, healthcare in general, healthcare education, whether that's practicing good hygiene, whether it's about vaccines or prevention of, chronic disease. I think that healthcare education is something that we take for granted here and

  maybe

  we grow up knowing, and our families have instilled some things in us, but in a lot of parts of the world,

  There's a huge lack of access

  to that.

  Yeah. And so people going in, in the medical field or in a nutrition area, they would be starting at a more elementary level than someone who's working as a nutritionist and a medical doctor or nurse here in the us. And, but it can be, therefore, I think even more transformational. Because it's being done at often at a more preventative level.

  Yeah. Than in response to issues and health problems that come up for people. Okay.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That's

  That's public health. Alright. Another myth that I'm just gonna join a team that has matching t-shirts.

  I'm just gonna walk around and evangelize. Okay. This is funny, but I think it also speaks to something true that people have a fear of, or just maybe an assumption of, not fear. An assumption is that you're gonna be doing everything in groups. Yeah. And you're gonna be doing everything together because that's people's experience on short term teams.

  Mm-hmm. When they're sent out by their church or their university. Is that, never be alone, never do anything alone. Everything you're gonna be doing is in a group of 10 and with matching T-shirts. Yeah. But in reality,

  Doing your own unique role on the field. You have a job and the rest of the team that you're serving with has their own jobs.

  In cooperation with other people in the community, maybe people from other organizations, maybe people who are expats, who are living there. A whole variety of people that are linking arms together with a common vision for transformation in the community. And so you're probably gonna be working alone for part of the time.

  You're probably gonna be working hand in hand with some team members. For a portion of the week. Given week, you're probably gonna be working with other people outside the team for another part of the week. It's really something that you have to reset your expectations for, that this is my job and I'm operating like this is a

  career

  and

  that I am

  An independent person and I'm capable of managing my own time.

  That's a skillset that we look for actually in people,

  and

  something learned and it's not something that people, necessarily are born with and a trait that everyone has. But, that is an expectation that is wrong. It's a myth that people have about missionary work.

  And in reality it looks a lot more like you're doing a job and you're living in community with people. Yeah. I have visited, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 of our teams around the world. Yeah. I have never seen, team t-shirts. I have never seen groups of 10 or 12 huddling together, working around, all working on the same project.

  Occasionally. It might be preparing a meal for guests or something. So you all team up to do that. Yeah. But

  the myth

  is so easily shot out of the water. Yeah. And so next myth.

  If I become missionary, I will pretty much be living in poverty. I won't be able to actually build wealth. I won't actually be able to have a decent income, because.

  I

  should just

  fundraise

  enough just to be able

  to live.

  and that this is a sacrifice. So you should live sacrificially.

  Exactly. Yeah, I understand how people come to that idea.

  I,

  think that, that people doing mission work, and I can only speak on behalf of my organization, one collective, I think people doing mission work there, there is a cap to their salary, but that cap is higher than what I think most people looking in might guess.

  And, that cap can be raised as well. Yes, it relates to fundraising, which provides the source of that salary and the increasing of a salary. But we don't. Do like poverty missions?

  Yeah.

  The budgets that we set for our people, they're also not luxurious. But they are generous. I use the word robust. We prepare our people well. And so their budgets include things like savings, retirement, vacation Yeah. And other things. And the worker has influence into what their salary is gonna be. Yeah. I love that.

  So that you as a worker can keep giving from your overflow to other important things that you care about, whether that's other workers, whether that's organizations, church based ministries, local church, but building that into your budget makes it intentional that you are actually preparing and planning to give in addition to receiving.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Clearly if you're looking to be a mega millionaire, going the route of

  foreign.

  mission service is probably not the path you wanna follow. That's evident. But in terms of poverty and having to scrimp and save, that's not the way that we follow. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for that.

  It doesn't make for healthy missionaries, I'll just say that. Yeah. If you're living in poverty, if you are worried about how your needs will be met, if that's consuming all of your energy, and it's creating anxiety, then you cannot do your work to your best potential. Yeah.

  Wanna mention the idea of internships because I think as people are in college, as people are, gaining experience and learning a new set of skills.

  They're wondering how they can use these on the field, maybe in ministry, and a really great way to try that out and 📍 📍 📍 a feel for what long term work could look like is through perhaps a summer internship.

  Maybe it's a whole semester, maybe it's looks like a gap year, but an internship type experience where you're joining a long-term team in a community of ours around the world as essentially a temporary teammate. So you're brought into the fold, you're joining all of the team meetings, and you're doing some strategic planning and you're contributing to long-term projects and you're doing it also to build your own skillset.

  Yeah. And to learn from others who have been there longer than you and will be there longer than you after you leave. And it's informing

  your

  future. Two. And so we offer many, many opportunities for people to come get a taste of what work looks like with us. And really make a meaningful contribution.

  We wouldn't offer the internship if it didn't play a part in the long term vision.

  Yeah.

  and so we want people to come experience what that's like with us. And then we, as mobilizers as serving coaches, we develop, even like a longer term relationship with those people where we're seeing them through that experience and then continuing our discussions with them and seeing where the rest of their, university, education takes 'em and where they might end up afterward.

  So I think that's a really great way to get

  Yeah. More

  a really practical example of that is I did an interview

  with one Collective

  right

  where you, like you, you even said this.

  like

  You were like, Hey, can you go to Bulgaria in South Africa,

  make

  some videos

  We want to tell the stories of those communities. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And then help us do that.

  And I was like, yeah. So I did that for a summer and I went and I filmed and worked for those teams and got to see the ministry, which is like what really hooked me into one collective. Beautiful. This is ministry done differently and I gotta tell those stories. I came away from it with an awesome portfolio

  piece

  And also you guys had like a really, I hope, like a valuable Yeah.

  Story

  Video to share and to use. Yeah. I think our communications director would say that we got that. Yeah. And then at some point, soon after that you were onboarded into the role you're currently in. Yeah. Full time. A full-time position. Yeah. And that wouldn't have happened Yeah.

  Without doing that internship.

  internship,

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  So I would encourage all young people to consider an internship if this is on your mind at all.

  Mm-hmm.

  Mm-hmm. For the future

  Yeah.

  and some, younger people, college students can use a summer experience to check a box for their college requirement. Right. I just spoke yesterday with a Taylor University student who spent six weeks in Masa, Tempe, Nicaragua

  Oh,

  Oh, yeah.

  teaching English in a local school.

  Part of what our team does there as a part of her tessel teaching English as a second language, requirement at Taylor University.

  awesome.

  That's awesome. Yeah. And she wants to go long term. Oh, that's awesome. In some capacity.

  Okay.

  Okay. This is funny. Two of my siblings have also been in this pipeline. Like my brother went to Ukraine for three months.

  Yes. And

  yes,

  that was a time that he used to develop his skill of becoming a software developer, while he also coworked. Wow. A hard skill. Yeah. He developed that. He taught himself that, but he did that 'cause he took himself, his job there anyway

  in a way

  was to cowork in the.

  and to co

  live

  with people there. Yes. And also challenge people to speak English.

  and

  Yes. And that

  then

  long term, he ended up working for one collection. As a software developer and my sister check that box. Teaching in Bulgaria for summer and now she's there long term. So we've really seen opportunity. So in the practice life, three internships ended up being long-term work with Collective.

  And I, heard there are younger siblings in the ranks. Right. Coming up,

  I'll connect you. You'll point them in this direction. There have been leaders on the field with one collective who have said to us in mobilization,

  Ask your people, what do you love to do? Identify that, come and do it here. Yeah. Now it doesn't play out exactly that way. That's like a blank check that you can't promise, or, but there's something to that, and that is if you have a skill or sometimes even a hobby, something that you are passionate about and you have some experience in doing that, sometimes our teams around the world will have an opening for exactly what you love to do.

  Yeah.

  We have places where, people use their artistic painting skills, for

  for example.

  to work with refugees. Yeah. We have, at least one team, maybe more than one, where young people who have musical, acumen abilities,

  Mm-hmm.

  they write songs and they come, go and sing and they lead worship. I do think that particularly with Gen Z, I just heard about this,

  from a

  partner organization of ours who over a period of time conducted a survey of a bunch of different generations and what their motivations for service were and also what kept them from moving forward.

  And they were able to compare the different generations and their top motivators. And it was really interesting to hear. And for boomers and Gen X, they found themselves a lot more motivated by a particular location in the world and maybe a calling to a people group, and for younger Gen Z applicants.

  That is not in even maybe the top five motivators. Interesting.

  right?

  Instead they're really entirely motivated by pursuing a skills-based

  position

  And

  that's what draws them to maybe a location they've never heard of. Mm-hmm. Maybe a location that they had no knowledge of in the past, and that God is now opening up that opportunity and speaking to them through the role that they were equipped for that then they pursue.

  Yeah. So I think it's really interesting revelation that the generations operate differently and we're seeing this kind of trend

  Yeah.

  with younger people, towards pursuing your area of expertise, pursuing your skills,

  and

  then that follows the people and the location where you'd be working yeah.

  Which has been

  absolutely true of me. For sure.

  Yeah.

  Because I want to use my skills, develop my skills, and the location people, I'm open I will say that fairly common for me is that people will.

  Maybe they come, they present with wanting to do something in a certain field, maybe communications or, and then

  Yeah,

  on the field. So we may have a role description, an opportunity on our website that describes something in the area of communications. But then in communicating with the field leader, sometimes that's where the communication needs to be consistent.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Needs to flow with what the

  aspiring worker

  is interested in. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That can be a challenge. And even then, once they get to the field, then you find out what their role is really like and is really involved with.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And I think communication all along that is really important because people on both sides.

  sides

  Make assumptions.

  Yeah.

  And

  think that they know what it entails. Mm-hmm. And what life will be like there. And the leader on the field thinks they know what the person is bringing to the team.

  Mm-hmm. And what their expectations are. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And if it's not talked about, then there's gonna be unmet expectations on both sides. So that's something we encourage in this process is please dive into your expectations with the leader as you're having these conversations, these interviews about your future in this place.

  Yeah. Because you will find that you do have expectations, even if you don't realize them yet. Yeah. They're subconscious. But as you bring them to the surface and you intentionally think about it and then discuss it, you're gonna have to come to a compromise and some sort of agreement on what is reality there.

  Yeah.

  And knowing that before you go is gonna save a lot of hurt. And even then. Yeah. After all of that really good work, you get to the field and you still, both sides will have to have a lot of flexibility because it's just not what you are gonna expect completely. Would you say it's true that you get to, in a way,

  make

  your role and like figure out what it looks like as you join the team

  and

  start to do work?

  I,

  yes.

  But

  I don't think it's, entirely up to you. I think it's in, in service of the goals of the team. Yeah. And,

  The leader sees as the right next step for this team.

  Yeah. So

  So it is a very fluid dynamic experience.

  and

  figure It is.

  it is.

  Is,

  There, there are general parameters to the role.

  If you're a communications person, you're not an agriculture person. Okay. You're a communications. Okay. You have some general Yeah. But then in ongoing communication, and then once you get to the field and you go, oh, I have never been to this location before. I don't. How do, where do I buy my food?

  So you're learning how to live all over again.

  Yeah.

  And you're starting a new job. Yeah. So you have to have, yes. It is fluid. It involves the personality of the person, it involves the leader and what their expectations are. Just a lot of communication. Yeah. Is so vital. Yeah. That's awesome.

  Cool.

  Which is true for any job, a marketplace job or working across cultural ministry or any relationship, like a romantic relationship or entering into marriage or absolute one guys all.

  Wow. Yeah.

  So cool.

  cool.

  Well

  thanks for walking me through this guys and let me Yap. And process this because like genuinely I'm here and this is what I hear a lot about.

  So hopefully you guys got some value out of that. And it's clear.

  and,

  Thanks for running in guys.

  thanks Michael.

  it.

  Thanks,

  wonderful being with 📍 you guys. Thank you guys.

  for listening to this episode of Torn Between, hopefully this has been helpful for you as you are trying to figure out what role you want to fill. And maybe cross-cultural work or in a marketplace job.

  And if you guys want to explore this more and see if there's a rollout win Collective that could fit you, talk to Mark or Carly.

  They would love to chat with you

  and

  help

  you figure out as they're helping me figure out what my role could be abroad.

  So

  📍 Gotcha.

EP 4: Torn Between a “Real Job” and Ministry

Episode 4 | 38 Minutes | Oct 21, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You want to serve cross-culturally—but you also want to keep building your skills, experience, and resume. Is overseas work a career pause, or can it actually push your career forward?

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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In this episode, we dive into the ‘Ministry is only a Bible study’ myth and look at real roles—from communications to public health to entrepreneurship. If you’ve wondered what you’d actually do overseas (and how it translates back home), this episode is for you.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• Why cross-cultural work isn’t about losing your career—it’s about redirecting it.

• How your professional skills (from business to media to public health) can make a tangible impact.

• The myths that keep people from going—and what actually happens on the field day-to-day.

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

  Hey - guys, welcome back.

  Thanks for joining in episode four of the Torn Between Podcast.

  Today we’re talking about what the heck you would actually do as a missionary.

  Right. Yes. That’s it.

  That’s the blunt way to put it.

  But we’re gonna dive into what it actually means to build a resume —

  What does it look like to have a clear job role,

  how you can like actually develop your professional skills

  doing cross-cultural work and service work.

  So, hopefully we can get over some of the misconceptions.

  Yes.

  What — what a missionary does.

  Which I think part of it is, a lot of ‘em are actually kind of true,

  but at One Collective, they’re quite different. 📍

  Yeah. Alright.

  This is — we’ll start with the — I’m torn between…

  Yeah.

  Yeah. Something where I am now.

  And then the idea of cross-cultural service work.

  That has been a theme in this series.

  Michael’s been torn between which —

  which is genuinely true.

  Am I playing it up a little bit? Yeah.

  But also it is true.

  And I have been genuinely learning so much from you guys.

  I appreciate that.

  So this series has been fun.

  That’s awesome.

  So here’s the problem that I need your guys’ help with.

  I — as I’ve been talking about — considering Spain, right?

  But also I have this job where I literally make these podcasts for One Collective,

  you know, among the many other things that I do.

  And so the thing that is holding me up from the idea of moving abroad is:

  I have a pretty clear job role here.

  I have clear income.

  I have clear skills that I’m developing at One Collective,

  and I feel pretty good about them.

  Learning CRMs, about management leadership. All these things. In my conversations and thoughts about moving to Spain and doing cross-cultural service work, is that I would go there and I would just run a Bible study or just live with people and be like, oh, how are you today?

  Can I evangelize to you? And,

  then like our

  you know, prince, uh, well I hope that's, matching shirts that also like

  Athea

  Athea or the Pilgrim house. Like, come join us and meet the love of tv, which is all great and good, but I'm playing some of the misconceptions. Sure.

  But,

  I actually, my fear though is I would move here and I wouldn't have a real job.

  Mm-hmm. It

  be a real job. I wouldn't be developing my professional self anymore. And then that would hinder me future if I ever wanted to move back or any, into any other professional field. And, we've talked about this a little bit. I know it's not true, but that still is my fear, right? So how do I get over that fear and

  what is

  what is

  the truth about cross-cultural service work?

  Where does that fear come from? Because I'm trying to, I know our teams that work around the world. I know many of our people, a couple hundred people who work around the world with us, they are using their skills.

  I'm just curious, where does your fear about that come from? Yeah, I think it comes from the idea that in America I have a pretty good job and I'm a videographer, which has some almost prestige to it sometimes. Like, yeah, I get to travel, I get to make videos pretty cool, I guess. And my fear is that I would move here and my understanding is as a missionary, you just sit down and chat with people.

  People,

  Or so you'd give up all that you've worked for. I would give up all that I worked for and would then just become a service oriented person. Which is not bad at all. Like people need other people to sit down with their mental love and spend time with them. And we do that in a lot of places in collective, but loving and serving are things that you're less drawn to than photography.

  Just to throw it out there.

  out there. Yeah. I'm

  Not about loving people. No, no. I feel like I have hard skills that I really value and spend time developing and I feel like I would not have the opportunity to use those, even though I think those would be a way I can bless and serve people there. Yeah. And I'm learning and I think trying to learn

  like

  what would, would look like to use those skills cross culturally.

  Well, I think this would be a good time to discuss a few of those myths or misconceptions, that come up and inform your thinking and contribute to those fears that you're having. Let's brainstorm. What are some common myths that people might have when, anticipating starting this process and what could keep them from moving forward?

  And what is the actual truth? What's the reality like both with one collective and maybe just in general?

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So misconception number one, like I just go abroad and I run a Bible study or like an after school program, and I just sit around and like host people or something.

  And this might be a deep rabbit trail. So are you guys okay if we really dive in and tear apart the idea of missions work a little bit? The title? Yeah.

  Sure. Okay. Every time I've heard a missionary, talk to my church or talk, be like at church camp, they're like, the message oftentimes is there's this number of unreached people in this country or whatever, and they

  need

  you to

  To alize to them. to them.

  But also you take it a step further, missionaries I feel like are

  What I see feel about them is they ask for people's money and then they go and they just hang out in this other country.

  And I'm like, what are you actually doing though? And it doesn't feel like it's necessarily an effective

  use

  of funds.

  And this is coming from you, which is like a more. Like entrepreneurship, business minded person. Yeah. Because I see I'm a little skeptical. Yeah. Very skeptical. Maybe even like where, when I was growing up I was like, oh, I'm all about this. And then I was like, alright, no, let's nuance this a lot more now.

  And sometimes I feel like missionaries are a waste of money.

  Mm-hmm.

  I'm gonna take your side on this question a little bit because it sounds like some of your perceptions are coming from actual data points that you have seen Yeah. And observed and heard. And so you naturally would be in this place today where you're skeptical Yeah.

  Somewhat, right? Yeah, absolutely.

  Yeah.

  think also historically, as you've seen it presented to you. It may be just a little tiny fraction of the reality of what's actually happening, but the way it's communicated might not have been effective. Mm-hmm. And really rallying up interest and attracting people to the work because not communicating, things that would actually speak to future missionaries or future goers that would resonate with them and get them to want to join.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So I think a communication piece and communicating ineffectively actually informs your misconception too Yeah.

  percent Yeah.

  So years ago I studied accounting and my favorite course was Accounting 1 0 1, which is like the first. Freshman year. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. But then as the years went on through my major, I didn't like it, but I ended up with an accounting degree, became a CPA and I and my wife and two kids, we went to what used to be Zaire, it's the Democratic Republic of Congo now.

  And I was a treasurer at a medical center

  In Northeastern Zaire.

  Okay.

  So I was using a skill that I had learned, disliked, but I had learned, and I was using it for a very specific needed, role at this medical center that had over 100 beds. It was a significant place. Wow.

  Wow.

  That's what I did.

  And I think that, there are numerous examples of people who use their hard skills in mission type work. And service around the world. Yeah. That's just one. Yeah. Would you say this is true about one collective that, we have a lot of open positions on different teams. Would you say those positions are kind of representative of an actual job posting, like requirements, responsibilities and like expectations?

  Yes. I would say that, and that's how we encourage our leaders around the world to think of their open opportunities. So the first step for them is evaluating in the community where there might be a need that isn't currently being met. A need that, is strategic for their vision for where this.

  Community should be going.

  And that yeah, isn't present in the community right now. And that's how one collective can have a deeper impact and get further involved in the ministry there. And so then the need translates to an opportunity of

  how

  we can promote this, and how we can attract people to this type of role.

  And then the opportunity, I think it shaped around the actual applicant that we're in conversation with, that we're talking about

  their

  unique set of skills, their experiences, their training, their interests and hobbies and passions.

  And

  take those open roles, those open opportunities, and we combine them with what we know about the applicant.

  And then we create a job description that fits both the needs on the field and. The skills and what the person can offer that's coming to one collective. Mm-hmm. I see. That is actually getting at one of my misconceptions, I think. Okay. Which for example, I graduated and I was thinking about going like long transitions

  and

  so I graduated and then we were chatting, mark, you were my mobilizer.

  This was a really conversation between us, but my expectation is somebody like me graduates, you're like, I want to do this thing. And then the, the organization is like, great, another body, where do we want to just throw it up? Instead of being like, no, we actually have a need for your

  specific characteristics

  and skills and let us strategically place you.

  I feel like my misconception is that isn't ever done any strategic element to it. Which is not true. I want collective. Do you feel like. You have a sense of pressure, that you have to make this decision and then stick with this decision for a certain period of time. 'cause I think that's another common myth that you're deciding that you're gonna do missions and that's the only then pathway forward.

  And there's no room for change. There's no room to pivot to something different, whether that's in the mission space or outside of the mission space.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. You can't change your mind. Once you've made that commitment. You're locked in and you're locked in. So life. Do you feel any pressure like that?

  Okay.

  Okay.

  I maybe not exactly that I'm locked into life, but what makes me fear that is the idea that I will join this missions, and then I will have this weird gap in my resume. And then after that, I'll become less 📍 📍 📍 idealOf a hire to an employer. Interesting. And so reintegrating back into the professional space, my expectation is it would be challenging.

  So

  So in your mind, the professional development stops when you go to the field.

  Which is not

  True.

  I think personal development would happen because you country. Sure. Country and everything. You're gonna learn so much. Yeah. Which is good, but also I'm like, I care about the professional development.

  Yeah. Which you guys are saying does happen. It does happen. It doesn't have to be a gap in your resume. It can actually be an asset in your resume. Okay. But you have

  international

  Tell me about how

  how

  Absolutely. Both cross-cultural work

  can

  an asset in my resume. You will be able to present to your prospective employers after returning back home that you have lived in another culture.

  You have perhaps learned a different language and spoken that language. You will have interacted with people who are outside of the conventional, demographic from where you're from or from your hometown, whatever.

  Yeah.

  It just gives you a depth and a breadth of, I realize these are all personal and not so much the professional side.

  Yeah. Encouraging my misperception.

  Oh wow.

  Okay. Because you're saying all you would have to speak to your new employer is personal developments. Again, I'm not hearing that there's professional development in the field. Well, yeah. Okay. So in addition to cultural intelligence, cultural awareness in a global economy, which is actually really important to know how. To connect with people

  from

  different backgrounds around the world. Yeah. It depends what you'd be doing on the field and if that would further your skills and your professional development.

  And so if you chose something and if an organization, like one Collective had an opportunity for you to actually use those hard skills and contribute to the work that a team is doing in a particular community, I think that, you could actually grow in your hard skills depending on Yeah. What it is that you're doing.

  So in this example, if you were a videographer, on the field, you might be the only videographer on that team. So you may or may not be mentored by somebody who's an employee of the organization, who's, been doing it for long. Than you, but you'd probably develop content that then would be used in multiple ways throughout the organization.

  It could be part of your portfolio going forward.

  Yeah.

  It could be something where you learn to see things through a different lens. Maybe you collaborate with other videographers from other organizations who are also sharpening their skills. Maybe you'd have a chance to present at conferences in different parts of the world.

  Maybe it would just open up new professional doors that you wouldn't even have here because of your location or because of, just the new opportunities you have there. Yeah. No, that's really helpful here, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive into

  a

  a case study different than the one you just gave me.

  Okay. But I wanna get really concrete about this. Yeah. So imagine I just graduated and I got

  a

  nutritionist degree, and I want to do cross-cultural work. Like,

  What

  would that look like for me to use that hard skill, on a day-to-day basis with one collective? Yeah. So if you were going to use that skill here in the us maybe you'd have, maybe you'd be affiliated with the practice or maybe you'd have a set of clients and maybe you're helping them with diet or lifestyle changes.

  And it's a pretty specific schedule that you maintain and you know what you expect and you know who you're working with. If you're gonna apply that in a community that's developing, that's under-resourced, that doesn't have the same access to healthcare that we do here,

  I think then that you're

  able

  apply that in a way that's really meaningful and life changing to people who may not understand how to.

  F properly feed their families. Maybe they don't understand what good nutrition can mean for disease prevention. Maybe they don't understand what maternal nutrition can look like to properly feed a pregnant woman, before they, give birth and nourish the baby. So I think nutrition education is something that is lacking in a lot of parts of the world.

  That with proper training and investing in people's growth and development and education, this can actually be a really life changing set of skills that you can apply in a very meaningful way.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. And in the locations where we work, Michael, our focus is always on people who are more on the margins.

  Okay.

  And so we're gonna be working with people who don't have. Access to the kinds of healthcare and clean water

  Yeah.

  healthy food sources and resources that a typical person in the US would have. So a nutritionist in another country working with people who are on the margins, that would be a real useful skill in that setting.

  Yeah.

  I'm just now remembering actually a story that's really related to this that I think one collector put out right before I joined sometime. And it was about in Ecuador, about them working with the that are on the margins that are

  Really in poverty there.

  'Cause malnutrition was a huge problem there. Mm-hmm. It's, and actually having somebody there to diagnose that and then recommend, I don't if they're giving food out something.

  That.

  I remember that being very specific.

  Hearing

  That from the collective.

  So, I mean, healthcare in general, healthcare education, whether that's practicing good hygiene, whether it's about vaccines or prevention of, chronic disease. I think that healthcare education is something that we take for granted here and

  maybe

  we grow up knowing, and our families have instilled some things in us, but in a lot of parts of the world,

  There's a huge lack of access

  to that.

  Yeah. And so people going in, in the medical field or in a nutrition area, they would be starting at a more elementary level than someone who's working as a nutritionist and a medical doctor or nurse here in the us. And, but it can be, therefore, I think even more transformational. Because it's being done at often at a more preventative level.

  Yeah. Than in response to issues and health problems that come up for people. Okay.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That's

  That's public health. Alright. Another myth that I'm just gonna join a team that has matching t-shirts.

  I'm just gonna walk around and evangelize. Okay. This is funny, but I think it also speaks to something true that people have a fear of, or just maybe an assumption of, not fear. An assumption is that you're gonna be doing everything in groups. Yeah. And you're gonna be doing everything together because that's people's experience on short term teams.

  Mm-hmm. When they're sent out by their church or their university. Is that, never be alone, never do anything alone. Everything you're gonna be doing is in a group of 10 and with matching T-shirts. Yeah. But in reality,

  Doing your own unique role on the field. You have a job and the rest of the team that you're serving with has their own jobs.

  In cooperation with other people in the community, maybe people from other organizations, maybe people who are expats, who are living there. A whole variety of people that are linking arms together with a common vision for transformation in the community. And so you're probably gonna be working alone for part of the time.

  You're probably gonna be working hand in hand with some team members. For a portion of the week. Given week, you're probably gonna be working with other people outside the team for another part of the week. It's really something that you have to reset your expectations for, that this is my job and I'm operating like this is a

  career

  and

  that I am

  An independent person and I'm capable of managing my own time.

  That's a skillset that we look for actually in people,

  and

  something learned and it's not something that people, necessarily are born with and a trait that everyone has. But, that is an expectation that is wrong. It's a myth that people have about missionary work.

  And in reality it looks a lot more like you're doing a job and you're living in community with people. Yeah. I have visited, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 of our teams around the world. Yeah. I have never seen, team t-shirts. I have never seen groups of 10 or 12 huddling together, working around, all working on the same project.

  Occasionally. It might be preparing a meal for guests or something. So you all team up to do that. Yeah. But

  the myth

  is so easily shot out of the water. Yeah. And so next myth.

  If I become missionary, I will pretty much be living in poverty. I won't be able to actually build wealth. I won't actually be able to have a decent income, because.

  I

  should just

  fundraise

  enough just to be able

  to live.

  and that this is a sacrifice. So you should live sacrificially.

  Exactly. Yeah, I understand how people come to that idea.

  I,

  think that, that people doing mission work, and I can only speak on behalf of my organization, one collective, I think people doing mission work there, there is a cap to their salary, but that cap is higher than what I think most people looking in might guess.

  And, that cap can be raised as well. Yes, it relates to fundraising, which provides the source of that salary and the increasing of a salary. But we don't. Do like poverty missions?

  Yeah.

  The budgets that we set for our people, they're also not luxurious. But they are generous. I use the word robust. We prepare our people well. And so their budgets include things like savings, retirement, vacation Yeah. And other things. And the worker has influence into what their salary is gonna be. Yeah. I love that.

  So that you as a worker can keep giving from your overflow to other important things that you care about, whether that's other workers, whether that's organizations, church based ministries, local church, but building that into your budget makes it intentional that you are actually preparing and planning to give in addition to receiving.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Clearly if you're looking to be a mega millionaire, going the route of

  foreign.

  mission service is probably not the path you wanna follow. That's evident. But in terms of poverty and having to scrimp and save, that's not the way that we follow. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for that.

  It doesn't make for healthy missionaries, I'll just say that. Yeah. If you're living in poverty, if you are worried about how your needs will be met, if that's consuming all of your energy, and it's creating anxiety, then you cannot do your work to your best potential. Yeah.

  Wanna mention the idea of internships because I think as people are in college, as people are, gaining experience and learning a new set of skills.

  They're wondering how they can use these on the field, maybe in ministry, and a really great way to try that out and 📍 📍 📍 a feel for what long term work could look like is through perhaps a summer internship.

  Maybe it's a whole semester, maybe it's looks like a gap year, but an internship type experience where you're joining a long-term team in a community of ours around the world as essentially a temporary teammate. So you're brought into the fold, you're joining all of the team meetings, and you're doing some strategic planning and you're contributing to long-term projects and you're doing it also to build your own skillset.

  Yeah. And to learn from others who have been there longer than you and will be there longer than you after you leave. And it's informing

  your

  future. Two. And so we offer many, many opportunities for people to come get a taste of what work looks like with us. And really make a meaningful contribution.

  We wouldn't offer the internship if it didn't play a part in the long term vision.

  Yeah.

  and so we want people to come experience what that's like with us. And then we, as mobilizers as serving coaches, we develop, even like a longer term relationship with those people where we're seeing them through that experience and then continuing our discussions with them and seeing where the rest of their, university, education takes 'em and where they might end up afterward.

  So I think that's a really great way to get

  Yeah. More

  a really practical example of that is I did an interview

  with one Collective

  right

  where you, like you, you even said this.

  like

  You were like, Hey, can you go to Bulgaria in South Africa,

  make

  some videos

  We want to tell the stories of those communities. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And then help us do that.

  And I was like, yeah. So I did that for a summer and I went and I filmed and worked for those teams and got to see the ministry, which is like what really hooked me into one collective. Beautiful. This is ministry done differently and I gotta tell those stories. I came away from it with an awesome portfolio

  piece

  And also you guys had like a really, I hope, like a valuable Yeah.

  Story

  Video to share and to use. Yeah. I think our communications director would say that we got that. Yeah. And then at some point, soon after that you were onboarded into the role you're currently in. Yeah. Full time. A full-time position. Yeah. And that wouldn't have happened Yeah.

  Without doing that internship.

  internship,

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  So I would encourage all young people to consider an internship if this is on your mind at all.

  Mm-hmm.

  Mm-hmm. For the future

  Yeah.

  and some, younger people, college students can use a summer experience to check a box for their college requirement. Right. I just spoke yesterday with a Taylor University student who spent six weeks in Masa, Tempe, Nicaragua

  Oh,

  Oh, yeah.

  teaching English in a local school.

  Part of what our team does there as a part of her tessel teaching English as a second language, requirement at Taylor University.

  awesome.

  That's awesome. Yeah. And she wants to go long term. Oh, that's awesome. In some capacity.

  Okay.

  Okay. This is funny. Two of my siblings have also been in this pipeline. Like my brother went to Ukraine for three months.

  Yes. And

  yes,

  that was a time that he used to develop his skill of becoming a software developer, while he also coworked. Wow. A hard skill. Yeah. He developed that. He taught himself that, but he did that 'cause he took himself, his job there anyway

  in a way

  was to cowork in the.

  and to co

  live

  with people there. Yes. And also challenge people to speak English.

  and

  Yes. And that

  then

  long term, he ended up working for one collection. As a software developer and my sister check that box. Teaching in Bulgaria for summer and now she's there long term. So we've really seen opportunity. So in the practice life, three internships ended up being long-term work with Collective.

  And I, heard there are younger siblings in the ranks. Right. Coming up,

  I'll connect you. You'll point them in this direction. There have been leaders on the field with one collective who have said to us in mobilization,

  Ask your people, what do you love to do? Identify that, come and do it here. Yeah. Now it doesn't play out exactly that way. That's like a blank check that you can't promise, or, but there's something to that, and that is if you have a skill or sometimes even a hobby, something that you are passionate about and you have some experience in doing that, sometimes our teams around the world will have an opening for exactly what you love to do.

  Yeah.

  We have places where, people use their artistic painting skills, for

  for example.

  to work with refugees. Yeah. We have, at least one team, maybe more than one, where young people who have musical, acumen abilities,

  Mm-hmm.

  they write songs and they come, go and sing and they lead worship. I do think that particularly with Gen Z, I just heard about this,

  from a

  partner organization of ours who over a period of time conducted a survey of a bunch of different generations and what their motivations for service were and also what kept them from moving forward.

  And they were able to compare the different generations and their top motivators. And it was really interesting to hear. And for boomers and Gen X, they found themselves a lot more motivated by a particular location in the world and maybe a calling to a people group, and for younger Gen Z applicants.

  That is not in even maybe the top five motivators. Interesting.

  right?

  Instead they're really entirely motivated by pursuing a skills-based

  position

  And

  that's what draws them to maybe a location they've never heard of. Mm-hmm. Maybe a location that they had no knowledge of in the past, and that God is now opening up that opportunity and speaking to them through the role that they were equipped for that then they pursue.

  Yeah. So I think it's really interesting revelation that the generations operate differently and we're seeing this kind of trend

  Yeah.

  with younger people, towards pursuing your area of expertise, pursuing your skills,

  and

  then that follows the people and the location where you'd be working yeah.

  Which has been

  absolutely true of me. For sure.

  Yeah.

  Because I want to use my skills, develop my skills, and the location people, I'm open I will say that fairly common for me is that people will.

  Maybe they come, they present with wanting to do something in a certain field, maybe communications or, and then

  Yeah,

  on the field. So we may have a role description, an opportunity on our website that describes something in the area of communications. But then in communicating with the field leader, sometimes that's where the communication needs to be consistent.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Needs to flow with what the

  aspiring worker

  is interested in. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That can be a challenge. And even then, once they get to the field, then you find out what their role is really like and is really involved with.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And I think communication all along that is really important because people on both sides.

  sides

  Make assumptions.

  Yeah.

  And

  think that they know what it entails. Mm-hmm. And what life will be like there. And the leader on the field thinks they know what the person is bringing to the team.

  Mm-hmm. And what their expectations are. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And if it's not talked about, then there's gonna be unmet expectations on both sides. So that's something we encourage in this process is please dive into your expectations with the leader as you're having these conversations, these interviews about your future in this place.

  Yeah. Because you will find that you do have expectations, even if you don't realize them yet. Yeah. They're subconscious. But as you bring them to the surface and you intentionally think about it and then discuss it, you're gonna have to come to a compromise and some sort of agreement on what is reality there.

  Yeah.

  And knowing that before you go is gonna save a lot of hurt. And even then. Yeah. After all of that really good work, you get to the field and you still, both sides will have to have a lot of flexibility because it's just not what you are gonna expect completely. Would you say it's true that you get to, in a way,

  make

  your role and like figure out what it looks like as you join the team

  and

  start to do work?

  I,

  yes.

  But

  I don't think it's, entirely up to you. I think it's in, in service of the goals of the team. Yeah. And,

  The leader sees as the right next step for this team.

  Yeah. So

  So it is a very fluid dynamic experience.

  and

  figure It is.

  it is.

  Is,

  There, there are general parameters to the role.

  If you're a communications person, you're not an agriculture person. Okay. You're a communications. Okay. You have some general Yeah. But then in ongoing communication, and then once you get to the field and you go, oh, I have never been to this location before. I don't. How do, where do I buy my food?

  So you're learning how to live all over again.

  Yeah.

  And you're starting a new job. Yeah. So you have to have, yes. It is fluid. It involves the personality of the person, it involves the leader and what their expectations are. Just a lot of communication. Yeah. Is so vital. Yeah. That's awesome.

  Cool.

  Which is true for any job, a marketplace job or working across cultural ministry or any relationship, like a romantic relationship or entering into marriage or absolute one guys all.

  Wow. Yeah.

  So cool.

  cool.

  Well

  thanks for walking me through this guys and let me Yap. And process this because like genuinely I'm here and this is what I hear a lot about.

  So hopefully you guys got some value out of that. And it's clear.

  and,

  Thanks for running in guys.

  thanks Michael.

  it.

  Thanks,

  wonderful being with 📍 you guys. Thank you guys.

  for listening to this episode of Torn Between, hopefully this has been helpful for you as you are trying to figure out what role you want to fill. And maybe cross-cultural work or in a marketplace job.

  And if you guys want to explore this more and see if there's a rollout win Collective that could fit you, talk to Mark or Carly.

  They would love to chat with you

  and

  help

  you figure out as they're helping me figure out what my role could be abroad.

  So

  📍 Gotcha.

EP 3: Torn Between Fundraising and Financial Security

Episode 3 | 56 Minutes | Oct 7, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You’ve considered cross-cultural work, but the idea of fundraising and relying on others for your income makes you hesitate.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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In this episode, we name the challenges: awkward asks, a “tapped” network, actually having enough to live well, and the tension between calling and financial security. We then get practical, talking about how support-raising works, when it’s treated as a partnership, how to map your network, how to get referrals to expand your network, and how to set a realistic, healthy budget that includes savings, retirement, debt repayment, and actual rest.

This is a down-to-earth look at the pros, cons, and first steps to help you decide if cross-cultural work is for you.

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What You’ll Learn:

• Why fundraising isn’t just about money, but about partnership and trust.

• Practical steps to move past fear and tap into networks you didn’t know you had.

• How to build a sustainable budget that accounts for savings, retirement, healthcare, and rest.

• Episode Transcript

  Hey Michael. Hey guys. How are you? How are you? I'm great. So today we are talking about money and all the feelings that come around money and how to do cross-cultural work and actually make a living doing that or building a career. And we're gonna dive into a lot of the feelings around that. Fears and misconceptions and we're just gonna process those. So if you are somebody that is thinking about doing cross-cultural work, but you are scared of maybe not making that much money or don't know how to fundraise and it just seems like a really big task, this episode's for you For sure. I wanna start out with you guys. With a question, maybe like a really short story as I've tried to do in every other episode. Love it. As you guys know, in episode one, I talked to you about my thoughts and desires to potentially move to Spain. Still in the process of that, still haven't figured that out. Hopefully by episode six we have that figured out. We'll nail it down. Yeah. Yeah. And one thing I've thought about a lot is do I leave my current role and then go and fundraise to then do that? But that just sounds like a really big task and it sounds impossible to raise enough money and ask people to donate monthly for me, but it'll make anything like close to what I do right now. How do I get over that feeling? What do I do with that? Yeah. Let's just go a little bit deeper. What? Feeling? The feeling that if I choose to go to Spain, I will not be able to afford it and people will not want to give me money so I can do that. I feel I incapable of being able to raise that much money. I, And I fear. Not having enough to live on, and I fear like stagnating my, like desire 📍 📍 📍 to build some form of wealth, in any form long term. The first thing I wanna say is That is so understandable and so if you didn't feel that way, I would be a little bit concerned about you as a person perhaps. Because you're looking at something that's really big, Feels really big, and might feel like you just can't do it. And that's a legitimate, like and anytime you start or anticipate something new that's big, like getting married, starting a new job, there, those are natural fears that come up. Michael. Yeah. Just wanna say that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I think anybody who's taking this decision really seriously should be weighing that question along with all the other questions, to evaluate, whether or not this is the right next step for them. So you're in good company when you have those fears. Thanks. And I think the next step then is addressing the fears and looking at why am I feeling this way and how do I move past that? Yeah. So when you said your fears are. Potentially being incapable, of doing it. Why do you think you would be incapable? Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind is, I've done short term trips and fundraised for those. My brother has done short term trips and fundraised for those, and my sister, fundraise to go to Bulgaria full time. And one thing is, I feel like my community or network of people that, like my family knows or whatever is totally sed and they're be like a freaking another proctor's asking my money. Like I already gave to them so many times. Yeah. And I don't know that they would want do that. Like I, I would hope that and I think the space I am trying to move into is like I have the faith, that God will take care of me and connect me to the people that care and And want to enable me to do this. Yeah. And see how this is something that, hopefully like through more prayer, like I figure out, or not that this is something God's calling me into. And people can like, help participate in that. But I think that's one way, which is like less about Me being incapable and more me feeling like my network be your, wouldn't want to do that for me. 'Cause that's a huge ask. It and relying on your community for your entire income is yeah. I'm wondering. so Michael, you moved from Lincoln to Elgin three years ago. And so you have a new, newer and growing community here. Will that, does that affect your, situation regarding network side? sure. And I think I've definitely built a unique community here, outside of the community that, like just my family 📍 📍 📍 knows. For sure. So I think I definitely can rely on them, in like really effective ways. So even your perception of your network might not be reality? think maybe. Yeah, that's Mm. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that, really your idea of your network being tapped out and the fact that they've already given to other family members is rooted in like assumptions that you're making about those people? For sure. Yeah. Like, I assume people don't want to give anymore and they're like, brow, I'm already so generous in all these spaces and which is like maybe like sad that I would think about my friends and my community that way in a that like they wouldn't step up and be, want to be generous. Yeah. Which I'm just now realizing that. Thanks guys. I mean, my sense is that people love the proctors. Yeah. You guys are somewhat known in Lincoln in your there. Yeah. People like you guys and. I can't speak for them, but I also wouldn't want you to make the decision for them about whether or not they will give to you. That's their decision. For sure. And that decision only becomes a possibility, when you put the opportunity in front of them. Yeah, that makes sense. It seems like this wouldn't be the case, but statistically the people who are most likely to give are people that have given before. Wow. Wow. There you There you. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay. Whether that's to a short-term project, whether they've made a one time donation, or whether they've given monthly already to a family member, they are actually the ones most likely to give because they are the most invested in your lives in what God's doing in your lives. Maybe in the ministry itself. Maybe they have a passion or a heart for the type of ministry that like Abby's involved in. And they're the ones who are already bent towards generosity towards the vision and mission of one collective and your family. Yeah. Yeah. So you might assume that they'd be less likely to give, but realistically they're the most likely. they're, they actually are. No way. I did that at all. think about that at all. That's so shocking. I would add too that I wonder if that's because you have relationships with these people who have given to you before and so the relationship is there and so you don't necessarily need a lot of new donors. You already have this network of people that you're in relationship with and their, there's in that. Yeah. And something to tap into. Yeah. That totally makes sense. Would you guys say this is true for most people going into cross-cultural work, where they have a network, but maybe they're not confident in their network? Yes. Okay. I would say for many people that's the case. There are some people. Who do not have a robust. network and they have to work harder to develop it. Okay. And they develop that through simply initiating relationships with people, referrals from their current networks. We see that happen a lot. But, generally the answer to that, I would say is yes. Okay. Interesting. Part of the strategy that we train, for those who are coming into our organization who are gonna be raising funds and going out to work somewhere in the world, in a community of ours, is to expand your network. Through referrals. Yeah. And it feels really unnatural and awkward at first, but it's actually a way that you are like leaning into the body of Christ and inviting more and more people into partnership with you and you can develop some really deep meaningful long-term relationships through the referral of others that you had no prior contact with and now are partners with you in ministry in a way that you never knew was possible. So we train people exactly how to do that and why it's so important. And without the use of referrals, I think that most of our people wouldn't be funded. Wow. I see. That's so surprising to me. 'cause I would've thought okay, I meet with, like somebody, a family from church, like Ryan, let's say that I meet with Ryan, chat with him, we have a relationship, like we've roasted beans together whatever. And I'm like, yo, like I'm thinking about this thing. Would you like, I wanna do thing. Would you consider supporting me financially? And then he'd be like, oh yeah, a hundred percent. And then I asked something along the lines of do you know anyone else that would care about mission work? And would be willing to. Finance, you support me. I, my thought is that they wouldn't want to because they don't know me yet. Hardly at all. And but like you're saying, that's where a lot of like funding actually comes from. Yes. Is through referrals. What makes people that are referred like care and want to give in to somebody they barely know, guess God. He's working in our hearts already. No, that's answer Michael to questions, God Great. Okay. Okay. It's true though. He's already at work in the hearts of people in ways that we have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. He's already opening doors for people who have generous hearts and who've been blessed and want to steward their own gifts. Yeah. And resources. And he's bringing these people to you you're being faithful to do the asking on your part. So the only way fundraising works successfully is if God is faithful in providing and if we are faithful in asking. And part of asking is making those awkward, uncomfortable asks of people that we don't yet know intimately, Yeah. Yeah. But that God is preparing for this type of work. And, they know Ryan and they care about Ryan and his opinions and the generous things that, he prioritizes. And so if Ryan makes the pitch that Michael is fundraising for this opportunity in Spain and that this is something that they should care about, they're gonna be more open to listening. Wow. Okay. That totally sense. Mm-hmm. I that again, still blows me away and I feel like I'm sitting here, I'm like, man, Michael, you need to have faith in God to show up more often. But it's, I think it's easy to like be mired in the, like, practicalness of the world and think, and I guess like maybe I am even a little like, cynical, thinking about this. And you guys are breaking that right now. Like literally. And I'm like, this is actually so good for me. So thanks for that. Michael, would you consider yourself an entrepreneur? I would say so, yeah. Okay. Do you think that a lot of your friends in your like age demographic are also entrepreneurs? To some extent, at least have the desire be, Okay. The skills needed to be a successful entrepreneur are literally the same skills needed to be a successful fundraiser. Interesting. Interesting. If you're going to make a business idea, takeoff, you need buy-in. You need investors. You need to be able to sell a vision. You need to be able to create interest, among people that you know might be, potential investors in your business. And, Fundraising is really the same thing. You're developing that skill so it can serve you in so many ways beyond just this involvement in ministry, which it's obviously Going to serve you very well here. Yeah. But if you were to move on from one collective, if you were to start your company, if were to do another type of ministry, even in the future, no matter where life takes you, what doors, God opens these skills to develop, like communication to expand your network, to be able to share a vision, to be able to ask for involvement of others, invite them in these things, really carry over. So doing it now will serve you forever. Okay. Wow, that's so interesting. And Michael, one of the things that you will experience if or as you move forward in this process is a a lot of surprises. God will show up in ways that you are not expecting and like you're already in this conversation showing elements of surprise. Yeah. At the things that you're learning. Your cynicism being chipped away a little bit. Yeah. Wow. I'm this happens over and over again. Not every single day, but a lot on the fundraising pathway. That That totally makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And some of those will be referrals, people you've never heard of before, who you will come to know in a new relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And that's so cool. And knowing those people in such, like, I would almost say like, it's kind of weird to say an intimate way. Like, because like they are That's Carly's word. We don't have to use that word, Richard. Cut. Cut. No. Keep it in. I know. I love it. Just because like finances are intimate, especially for Americans. Yeah. actually. yeah, that's true. Very personal. It is a thing you really share with people. Yeah. You don't say how much you make or how much you spend on things and you like keep it to yourself. And so I think when somebody's willing to share that and you make that intimate ask, Hey, can you give up your finances? This thing you keep very private. And give some to me is really Like cool. And I think hopefully could build really good relationships. Yeah. It's building Christian community in a way that like really only this can 📍 📍 📍 do to forge deeper relationships with people and really work together to accomplish a vision. Yeah. I'm curious. Have you guys seen, I, this is another one of my fears is once I integrate a financial aspect my relationship with different people, that could strain the relationship long term or like change it or make it a little more risky, I guess long term potentially. Where have you guys seen that, Which succeed and go well, but maybe have problems? Because the idea is oh, like I asked Ryan gimme money he does for you. And then he stops and ideally I'm mature enough and I'm like, totally okay. Like he has stuff going on in his life, but also could be like, yo, what up man? I thought we had great relationship. Why are not financially supporting me anymore? Or like that. Like, I don't really know, like what that could look like. I think if you are defining the relationship with Ryan as primarily a financial one then you will feel jilted if he stops giving. Yeah. But it's transactional, yeah, it's transaction. But if the relationship is legit there, there's some care, there's trust there. There's. Positive relational vibes in it, then the financial piece shouldn't affect that. You might feel that. Of course. Sure. But. The core of the relationship can endure. Yeah, that makes sense. And if the money is the Lord's to begin with, and you are asking that person to give to this particular ministry, to your ministry with one collective, they're giving it back to the Lord. And you know what? If that door closes for some reason or another, that's between them and Lord. Yeah. And maybe they're directing it to another great ministry or another great opportunity, but that won't affect your relationship with that person and your relationship with the Lord because you know that he will provide in other ways. A hundred percent. Yeah. And so I think like. like. Seeing the money as gods that he is going to direct as he pleases, and that those people are being obedient to God and how he's asked them to use their money, his money, Yeah. Yeah. That then I think that provides like, just more security, in both your relationship with God and with that person. Yeah. It's not dependent on their financial gifts. And their obedience to him plays out in a way that you may not have visibility to. Yeah. And so there may be some things you never know. Sure. But you're trusting that they're living in obedience to God and you're doing what you can to be faithful and live in obedience to God. That totally makes sense. You guys have both fundraised. How did your relationships with people around you that supported you change, as you fundraised and then came home and then like no longer needed, like to be supported and stuff like that? Did you have any bad experiences with that? And I'm also curious then about the good experiences with that. I don't think I had any bad There were some people that maybe I expected to give that didn't, and like I said, I don't know their circumstances. I don't know where else they're directing their funds, and I just had to trust that. That made, it really made no difference to me. It really wasn't about me and them and our relationship dynamic. It was more about, yeah, their own relationship to the Lord and how he was asking them to use their money. So I don't think it negatively impacted my relationships except to just be surprised at sometimes when I expected somebody to give more or in a different way. And that didn't happen. And then I had to make that decision not to let it affect our relationship. but it did deepen relationships that I had with people Yeah. because I'm sure that happened in the opposite Yes. Where you expected people not to give that much and they gave like abundantly. Yeah. And regardless of how much they gave, it was the fact that they chose to partner with me in this, that really, I think, strengthened our relationship. And then I was also making the conscious decision of staying in more regular communication Hundred percent them Yeah. As I wanted to share the ministry with them. And so we talked more often than we would have otherwise. Yeah. So it's just more intentional. That's cool. I've had a few calls with supporters recently. Mm-hmm. And like your people that did support you, people that did and are, and will supporting is still fundraising. I'm doing some fundraising. Oh, no way. In fact, Michael, if we could set No. Seriously. And on, on on Three or four of these recent calls in the last few months, the conversations, where the conversations went was we grew deeper in our understanding of each other's actual daily lives, the real things going on in our lives. And it, and with one or two of them, it almost became a matter of the funding. It almost didn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. Because the relationship was really growing and it was vibrant. Yeah. And both of these couples ended up giving Wow. To me, which was amazing. But it's like If the relationship, a ministry. It's a ministry. Yeah. You're having the opportunity to minister to these people that God has brought at this time Absolutely. in your life. And the funding is just like a small piece of that. But it's the that you have and the fact that you're able to both share deeply about challenges that you're facing, sin struggles that you're having, really celebrate together. Yeah. Yeah. It's a relational ministry that you have the opportunity to enter into. And people don't always it that way because they see it as a means to an end when they can actually go do Ministry. But really this is the same work. Yeah. It is. And so I feel like I've a handful of, some them are new friends, some of them are old friends that were stagnant and the friendships were stagnant and now they've come alive simply because we talked about money. Wow. And fundraising. That's so cool. I love that. Dang, I'm like slowly moving towards, excited about Maybe you go, go. no. no. Okay. I have another fear, and I think this one might land in more of like a, a theological space. Okay. And, I think I've kind of asked you guys about this before, but, I am somebody, I got like a business degree and everything. I do think of myself as entrepreneur. And I come from a family that didn't have a lot of money and I love the idea that I can do work and work hard and have good income and have the security of some form of wealth. Not saying like I become a millionaire whatever, but like enough to be comfortable. And my fear is that if I go to being fundraised and move to Spain, I actually. I'd be like, hindering 📍 📍 📍 that. And is It okay to want to build wealth as a cross-cultural worker? Why would it not be? I guess like part my thing is because the work is meaningful enough and God always provides, and so I shouldn't want wealth. I should want to serve and love people and experience father through experiences, which are wonderful. I think what I hear in alot of nonprofits like, yeah, we don't have that much money, but you do get this meaning. Which is true. You do get significant meaning that is wonderful. But I still also would love to have this like security, and like comfortability and not having to stress about this thing. Like my parents did kind of thing up. Mm-hmm. But it, in a way, it feels wrong to want that as a Christian. Interesting. What would you say for you, if you dig a little deeper, is the purpose for wanting build wealth? You said to be comfortable to have security. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you want those things and is there other things that you want to Yeah, I think two things immediately that are at the top of that. One, I want to not have to have a worry about money. And two, I want to be able to be somebody that be extremely generous to other people. And my have some mentors who will always like, tell me like, what you do when you have little is what you will do when you have much. And so I think now I am trying to live a life of Being generous, but it like. I don't make that much right now. And it is sometimes painful and you have to make that sacrifice. But that also is out of like God will provide and I get to experience him through generosity, which is actually like one of my favorite things. And it's like a weird thing. But I would love to be able to give more and like I see people, we have what, 11 people in training right now. And I would love to be able to support every single one. Because they're such good people and they're going to do such amazing work. That is not realistic at all. But it's just like interesting. And so I think, I don't know if I'm answering your question. I think I think you are, I think, when you have limited resources, like you're saying you do now, support might not always look financial and the ways that you're practicing generosity may not be through the giving of finances. So you could support these 11 workers in different ways. Other than just making a monthly donation to them, you have some really amazing gifts that they could benefit from. You have some knowledge and wisdom that they could benefit from. Those are ways that you could be supporting them, outside of the financial model. But getting back to building wealth and the purpose of that, it sounds like it's a matter of stewardship you and that you want to, you want to have enough that you can give away and that you can steward for God's purposes in your life and the lives of others. So I would say that then isn't inherently wrong. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Do you think that maybe it's wrong to have a focus on or want to add wealth? I think there's a part of me, and I think it comes from like I grew up as Christian, which is, like kind of some of the scriptures of money is the root of all evil. So like we shouldn't want that. The love of money the is the the root of all evil. Yeah. Yeah. Important Yeah. That is, that's so interesting. I think maybe the other voice in my head is, like maybe just coming from like my family community is like. That anytime money's talked about, it's always in a stressful manner. And so in a way, like engaging with other people, why I say it's like intimate is because it is like a high tension space to talk about some of those things. And I hope a lot of people going into cross culture work, Has healthy relationships with money. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. and and I'm sure a lot of do. I would imagine there's some people that are similar to me though. Oh, of course. Oh yeah. I'm curious. Have, where, have you guys you guys seen that? seen that With With people. And if you're, if you're worried about how to make ends meet, that occupies a lot of your energy and your brain. Yeah. And so then you don't have the freedom to give all of your energy and capacity to something like ministry because it's occupying so much of your Yeah. Yeah. So actually that's an attitude towards money that we want to see people grow and develop in, and that we try to plan ahead for with like how we craft our budgets. Yeah. I was gonna ask, how does one collective do that? Yeah. Like, what does that kind of practically look like? Yeah, so we're thinking about budgets in a way that actually, promotes like. Health, financially, and long term sustainability on the field. So when we're creating a budget for somebody that's not just outlining like their daily costs, but they're actually planning ahead financially, they're planning for retirement, they're planning for savings, they're actually planning for vacations, because it's really important to rest. So you don't reach a level of burnout in the type of ministry that we're doing. Wow, that's so awesome. Yeah, they're paying off Student loans that, is just a reality that so many people come to us having taken out loans finish school. Yeah. And it's important to be fiscally responsible and to pay those back. Yeah. So that's something we wanna account for. We want to provide for healthcare needs, we want to, provide for children's education. So those are all things that we factor in that people are raising funds for so that their energy can be focused on where God would have them make the most impact. Wow. Yeah. Does that mean each person that joins one collective in a way has a different budget based off of their needs? Yes. Okay. Based upon their needs. So it's, Go ahead. So it's not like you're going to this community or like country and this is like the average budget there. So that's what you did. Yeah. Everyone raises the same amount of money for their savings, I think think that's my expectation. Oh no. Those line items, savings, retirement, vacation, and a few others are very flexible and the worker gets to speak into those. Okay. Let those line items. And so there is a significant amount of room for people to use the phrase to add wealth. Yeah. In appropriate, ways that can, I don't know, like the numbers or how big we go on that, but I think there's just. Room for people to take this concern about their financial future and impact what the budget will look like for them. Okay. That's so cool. I love that. I know that even, so one thing I, right now, as I mentioned, we have 11 people in training. I would love to bring one of those people in on this conversation and we like chat with her personally That'd be great. She's like in this process right now. Yes. So let's take a quick break and go grab her. Awesome. Great.  If you're this deep into watching this podcast episode, then I'm assuming you are looking to do some type of mission work, and so I just wanted to invite you to do that. You should go to one collector.org/begin. There's a type form down at the bottom and you should fill it out, and in that type form you'll be able to schedule time with Mark or Carly. And they would love to jump on a call and chat with you about where you could go. 'cause we literally have 52 teams around the world and hundreds of open positions for people just like you. Now back to the conversation where you were gonna hear from Amanda. Amanda  it's my, uh, privilege to welcome our guest in this fundraising episode, Amanda Emerson. Amanda is a, an outgoing worker headed 📍 📍 📍 to South Africa and she is in the middle of her fundraising process. I've had the privilege of working with her as her mobilizer helping her in this process. So welcome Amanda. Thanks guys. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I'm Amanda. Like you guys have said, i've been a teacher the last eight years, and so just pivoting in my life to now go help educators and vulnerable women. No, man. That's great. Yeah. Super excited. Thanks for letting me also pull you out of your class training. Literally teaching about discipleship we're like, nah, podcast is more important. Not a problem. Come to the storage room. yeah, yeah. yeah. More fun. Yeah. so, um, well to you like a little context. Thanks Mark. We've been talking about a lot of the big feelings around fundraising. Kind of like before we start, as you know, I kind of chatted with you a bit like I've been thinking about moving to Spain and we've been just chatting about the, the barrier fundraising feels like it is. And Mark and Carly have been great about helping me land into a healthier space, a more faithful space, a more excited space. But I think I would love to, at least hear about like how your process has been with fundraising, and how it's impacted you, what's been hard and where you at now with it. So maybe to start, before you started fundraising, what was your biggest fear about fundraising? Oh, and then how'd you overcome that? I really just didn't want to. Okay. I think fundraising was hard. That was my thought. Yeah. Was I have to call a bunch of people and go knock on some doors. And the typical ideas you think about fundraising, which is interesting because I actually was a really good fundraiser in school. Okay. So like, when we had to sell 36 cheesecakes to go to Kings Island, you better believe I was at like 45 cheesecakes sold because I wanted a free trip to Kings Island. That's Yeah. So I was. was thinking back to that, I'm like, oh, I don't wanna knock on doors and call a bunch of people. But I think something that the Lord did is like every job I've had, he's always used it to prepare me. And I used to be a cut coast. A sales rep. Okay. And Caco is selling knives. If you don't know they are the best knives. Okay. I I don't care what anyone says, stands by that. I stand by it. I'm taking them with 📍 📍 📍 with me No Nice. They'll put it in in your carry on. No, they're packed my checked bag in the already. Oh, already. Wow. Wow. They're They're coming with me. And the training I had who, like my trainer slash boss. His name is Brett Wiggins. He's amazing. And he always taught us in training, he's I don't care who you ask, just go ask. I don't care if it's your boss, if it's your ex-boss, if it's your ex-boyfriend's mom, go do it. I did that Whoa. And she bought knives from me. No way. So yeah. So that training, I looked back on it in orientation when we were talking about fundraising and I was like, okay, Lord, now I see why you had me go out and sell some Sure. Because Interesting. The same model. Yeah, yeah. Carly was saying that, she asked me, she's Michael, do you see yourself as an entrepreneur? I was like, I so. She's like, honestly, same skills apply and are needed. Yep. And like same sales kind of thing. Okay. So how did you end up after like thinking fundraising's hard? Now that you've done at least I think the majority of your funding, how do you feel about fundraising now? That's a great question. I feel like it was easier what I had thought. Okay. Because I'm a relational person. Yeah. And when you have relationships with people, it's easier to talk to people. Therefore it's easier to have questions. Yeah. Yeah. Was the ask still hard? Yes. Okay. The ask is always hard. Okay. I actually would pray for some meetings and I'd be like, Lord. Please don't let me ask them. Can you just let them say I'm gonna support you. Okay. Okay. And then have no ask. And every time I prayed that, that's what happened. Wow. Which great. No way. Yes. Which praise on the, that's awesome, Lord. That's, yeah. The past like month has been different though. He's okay, it's time. You gotta, learn skill. I have this specific ask. Yeah. Okay. Just to get over that. But I think, getting, 70% done in this, fundraising, Yeah. I think that it's become easier because it's just people. Yeah. Beautiful. And I had some great advice, actually, it reminds me of you almost Mark, because you always have these like words of wisdom, pastoral wisdom that you give. that you give. And I had a missionary tell me, walk into every meeting like you're already fully funded and walk into every meeting to minister to them, and they're gonna minister to you. Wow. Okay. Have you seen that happen? Yes. Like in almost all of my meetings we're like there for four hours crying at some point. Wow. Yeah, it's been big. What does that look like? Yeah, I minister like practically, alright, I'm setting up a call with one of these guys, his name's Ryan at my church. Say I set up a call with him, how do I walk in there feeling like I'm fully funded and ready to minister to him? I think it's a mindset shift, right? Yeah. Do you trust that the Lord's gonna provide for you? Yeah. Even if it's not in dollars, it might be in prayer. So going in and caring about the person, the ask really goes out the window. Because yes, you're there for partnership. And I think that's one of the things he said too. Be explicit in partnership. Tell them I would love to have a partnership meeting with you to talk being prayerfully and financially partners. They already know going into it. So when they're like, yes, fantastic. It takes that nervousness out. Yeah. And then you can just be people about each other. Mm. Yeah. That's so awesome. Amanda, you have, gone through one collective's orientation back in January. Yes. And a main component of that training is on fundraising. Did that help you? How did it help you? And you've been paired with a coach, I think for the last several months. How has that and any of the resources one Collective has provided? was that helpful for you? Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it was a good jog of memory because it was very similar to cut code training. Oh yeah. Oh really? In that sense of it. Yeah. But I think it helped prepare me to look at the why, right? I'm not selling something to you now, I'm asking you to partner with me because I owe you just as much as you're giving to me. And it's a true partnership. And having my coach Chesney, she is awesome. Yeah. She keeps you accountable, which is great. Which is something I need someone to like, I'm pretty self-sustainable and I'm gonna get it done. Yeah. But like some weeks she's so let's go through your steps. And I'm like, oh. I said, I'll be very upfront. I didn't do any of them. Yeah. Can you put 'em on next week? Yeah. Yeah. eventually I'll get them done. But it was really great to have someone who's keeping you accountable, who's like a weekly check-in and it eventually got from we're here to talk about, did you do this, to just ministering to each other and being friends instead of a coach in a coachee. Yeah. Wow. What do your meetings usually look like? Lots of laughter, sometimes lots of crying. No way. Both can exist. Both because I I am a laugh crier. So when So when I laugh, I cry Anyway, so it's great. But it looks like, we start off like she always asks like, how are you doing? Right? Which some days we're really deep, because our meetings were on Tuesdays, and I think mental health is important. So I have therapy on Tuesdays also, and she's you had therapy today, didn't you? I was like, yeah, how do you know? But we would start off checking in and then going through our lists and then talking about, okay, what do we need to do going forward? Sure. I'll always end with, how can I pray for you? Which I thought was just so meaningful. And then on our last coaching session. I flipped the script and was like, Chiney, how can I pray for you? 'cause it's like now we're in it together. Yeah. And that's really sweet. Do you consider her partner in ministry? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Have you made a direct? ask to her? Twice. Twice No way. Okay. so funny. Early on and then at the very last session I like, have you decided yet? yet? Just, yeah. Yeah. She's been really, she's been really awesome. Awesome. That's great. That's so cool. I yeah, I knew like you guys, one collective, we did training fundraising, but honestly I have not heard anything about it at all. And so That's so good to hear that's been really helpful for you. Yeah. Ask anyone. I asked a lot of the people in the office, actually one of the first people I asked when I left that's supporter was. Scott and John and Carly amazing. and my mentors, Ben and Kristen were like, I'm not gonna stand in the way of your boldness. Ask them. Oh, wow. I I was like, okay, I'll, That's so funny. I love that. What would you say to someone, I'm, Been saying it already, but what would you say to someone who is thinking about serving in cross-cultural work? That they're scared as anything about raising funds, What would you say to them regarding the path with one that's Me right now. I don't wanna but I Want to, I'm thinking about cross-cultural work. Talk to Michael. This is what I would say is if it's God's will, it's God's bill. It's kind of cliche, but when the Lord moves you into a space, or even if you choose to be in that space, he knows heart and he knows the desires of your heart and. He'll make a way for it. And even in being scared that really should be the last thing we're scared about is fundraising because we're going to do the Lord's work, right? The harvest is plenty and the laborers are few. So someone who's saying, yeah, Lord, I'm gonna pick up my cross. I'm gonna die to my flesh and I'm gonna do what you want me to do, man, he's gonna make way for that because we're like, drops in a bucket. There's only a few drops, but one drop makes all the rip ripple effects and so you're gonna end up touching more people, which is what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting that you say fundraising should be the last thing we're worried about. To be honest, it is one of the biggest things I'm worried about, like probably fundraising and leaving my community. Those are the the two things. And yeah, as Mark and Collie have been working on me and moving me to just be faithful and to be excited about that as like one of the things, I am, I'm curious ' cause Mark and Carly have hinted towards this, like how have you been like spiritually formed because you fundraised and had to meet with so many people and asked for their help. Yeah. How has God been at work in your life during this season? That's a great question. I struggle with trusting God fully, right? All my trust. And I think that's been like the biggest thing is going into meetings and trusting that he's gonna do it. And there's been some meetings where. I've met with people that I thought were, they're like, they're gonna do it. And they didn't. Yeah. I was that, yeah. When she was fundraising and then I met with people that I felt there was. A break in our from past things. And I reached out to them anyways and they met with me and they were some of my biggest supporters. Amazing. I love that. Like in abundance. Yeah. Yeah. And had that chance to repair. Yeah. What was broken with them? Because you took the initiative to reach out. I love that. Yeah, Yeah. Redemption. That that was one of the more beautiful things. Great, they're giving me money. That's awesome. But what was more special was now I have another person in my corner who's supporting me that I got to fix that relationship with. Yeah. How hard was it to like, reach out to some of those people? Huh? And like, how do you have guts to be like, yeah, I haven't talked to this person in years, but I'm gonna text 'em or ' send me email or whatever. Because like, that also is another thing that's kind of daunting. It is daunting Mm. and like reaching out and being like, Hey, we haven't chatted for a while, but I money. That's what it feels like. It can feel like that. I think it feel, I think it feels that way in the mind of the one who's raising funds. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily, and some of that's just imaginary. It doesn't need necessarily feel that way in the mind of the person. So my cut, Cobos, I haven't talked to him since, 2013. Wow. And he was someone I reached out to and he's I'm so proud of you for reaching out and asking me. And he gave such a generous gift. Wow. But what was cooler about that? And that was like 10 minutes. I only had 10 minutes to talk to him. He was in the line to pick up his girls from school? No. worries. He was like, I got 10 minutes for you. And I was like, okay, great. I can do it 10 minutes. But what I got to hear in that story was I got to hear how wasn't a believer when I was working for him and how he came to Christ after I stopped working for him. No way. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. It it was amazing to hear that. So that was pretty cool. cool. And if I'm not mistaken, you were Afraid of make, of reaching back out to you, weren't you? Maybe not afraid, but you were, there was something there that was a blockage for you. Yeah, we talked about that. 'cause I was, 'cause I felt like left Cutco. I mean you get a lot of these young kids in, you go sell knives, you have Sure. You do all the things and it almost was like, no, you leave. But I was at a split where I was now in college and I needed to focus on education major Mm-hmm. instead of doing all of this all the time. Because you're running essentially your own business. That's really hard. And I, I'll be honest, I hated sales. Okay. I hate to this day, which is why I I did not know that. Oh, I hated, I thought hate it. you loved that. Oh no. you strike me as somebody that would be really good at it for some reason. is good. Okay. Okay. But But I. do not enjoy it. Okay. Okay. Wow. And I think the flip of fundraising versus selling right, is fundraising. It's God. Uhhuh. And you're bringing people into what God's already doing and selling is, I'm gonna make you believe that you need this product. Yes. Yeah. That's the difference. But yeah, I did not wanna ask him. I was, it was a whole month talking to talking to Mark, and I was like, okay, finally just gonna send him a text message. I didn't call anyone. Carly's you gotta call people. I called nobody. I talked to, no one, I texted everyone or met them in person, was like, Hey, I wanna meet with you. Because that's, I happen a couple times. Okay. I'm, I'm in a partnership meeting with someone at a restaurant. I see another person come in. I'm like, oh God, you're so cool. Nice. I'm gonna talk to them for a half second. I'm gonna set up something with them and then go go back to here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It worked out pretty well. This one, But you did have meetings with people. It was just setting it up. Oh yeah. Setting it up. Oh Yeah. So you just text a bunch of people like, Hey, doing this thing, would love to chat with you about this thing. Yeah, because I'm very forward about it. I want to partner with you financially and prayerfully and if they don't answer, that's the answer. Sure, yeah. So it makes a lot easier. And the expectations are set of what you will be asking for in the meeting when you send that text initially and set it up we're gonna talk about partnership. That's what you're coming to this meeting about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that was the same advice from that first missionary I talked to. Yeah. About going into every meeting already funded. That was something he's like, be so like upfront. That they're no. That their non-answer is a no. Yeah. All right. Okay. Okay. Done. And when is your target deployment date? Six weeks, or so how are you, how's that looking for you I have 34.1% left to go. Not counting at all, but Yeah. No, not at all. Not at all. But I feel like the Lord has highlighted people to me, and in the past he's always okay, you need to go. We gotta do these. We gotta talk to these, blah, blah, blah. But this. Like last month has been a very much of wait and watch. Which what it was in May. So May I had knee surgery. I started Perspectives course I had the race. I had lots of things to do. Yeah. So I didn't really fundraise in May. I walked in at 17,000 and walked out at 33,000. Wow. Wow. The Lord doubled Yeah. in a month. So faithfulness can look like different things at different times. Yes. Depending on what God's asking of you in that season. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. ' cause right now I feel like I'm not supposed to be going out and talking to a hundred people. I'm supposed to be waiting for things to grow and I keep praying. Lord. Put urgency on people's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I told Michael he record a little 32nd snippet saying, Amanda's waiting for you to sign up. Please. Hey, support Amanda. If you said you're going to then actually do it, let's make happen and happen. and send her to do the Lord's work. That's right. This is a way that you can support her. That's not even financial. See everyone give you a money to Amanda. Oh, connections. That's a huge thing. Connections. I have three people in my network that are not financial partners of mine yet. Yeah, but have connected me to so many people. Amazing. that's what they were saying. is like referrals. Oh, huge. And I was like, no way. This is gonna work. they don't owe you. I know. know I walked into the stone table. It's a global ministry, not-for-profit. They work in bam situations. And I shared my story with him. And referral's sitting there And he's sitting there and he said, just for you saying yes, I'm giving you $2,500 today, it will be a year account. My goodness. That's insane. I was like, that was my face. And he didn't know you. I had no idea who I was. And we set the expectation that we're not there to ask him for money. We're just there to share and get his advice. ' cause he worked a lot in Africa. Oh yeah. Wow. I was like, so God surprises you. Oh yeah. In abundance. Yeah. And that's like double like you are going to Africa, to do work, and you're like, Hey, can I chat with you about like, how can I do work effectively here? 'cause you have experience in this. Yeah. Plus he also is is financially supporting you? Yeah. That's so cool. Amazing. Yeah. Okay. It was amazing. amazing. I am just so glad that you have been bold in fundraising and that you've seen God work in your life and bring others into your life and all new ways. It's the best kind of preparation for the field work that you'll be doing, but it also is a ministry onto itself and you've seen that you've been a part of it. it. Thanks for being the living proof of what Mark Carly actually telling me. it the credibility. right. That's how how it works. It totally does. It does. That's testimony to That's so good. Thank you. Thank Amanda.   Having Amanda on was really fun. Thanks for that experience, guys. I feel like it was really helpful hearing her talk about her experience while working with you guys. And you guys are like saying all these things and then she's here's the truth of like how they work in that. Like they are real and it is true and I've been able do this thing I'm like, wow, great. So I just Hearing her story. It's like she's a year further down the road than you are If you were go down this, it's so helpful to see like a glimpse of what that could look like. I think she just finished her last coaching session, Yes. So she's been working with a coach since February and now she just has. The final home stretch of fundraising to do, and she's living this right now as we speak. Yeah. So in this episode we've talked a lot about my feelings, which thanks for creating that space for me guys. But I also wanna create space for you guys to share a little bit about what are the practical resources that one collective has that you guys work with people, to set them up for success. So, I don't know if you guys just wanna share a little bit, like what does that look like? What does that process like? Really practical. Yeah. So at one collective when people are accepted, after their application process and they, first thing they do they come to orientation, okay, orientation is a five day on site training experience here at our home office. and. the core, a primary feature of orientation is training in fundraising. And so we have a whole, training package that covers most of those days. And people are trained to know, h how how do you do this? So it's like you go from the fear, you take steps forward and now you're here. And it really does hit people. Yeah. And when they come to orientation that, oh my goodness, okay, is actually happening. Yeah. And then we dive into it. Yeah. Part of that is during orientation, we finalize that budget that we've been talking about. It's like an idea that everybody's working with, but there's no concrete numbers until that point in their process. Oh, okay. And then during orientation, nailing down, like, how are you planning for your future? And what are expenses on the field? And what kind of, line items do we need to consider, for you to be healthy on the field. Yeah. And then during the five days of training, there doing role play, they're putting practical things into place. They're starting to contact their network and make those connections. And we're giving them the tools and the strategy to set that up well. And then once orientation is over, we actually pair them with a coach. And the coach, like we've referenced Chesney, who's working Amanda, the coach, is actually meeting with them on a weekly basis to walk through some challenges they may be having as it relates fundraising, to strategize about future that they're walking into, to tailor their communication plan specific people in their networks, to pray with them regularly and hold them accountable to the steps that they said they were gonna take that week. I feel like the accountability piece is like one of the most helpful things. things? Yeah. Okay. And the coach is also somebody who's done fundraising before and been successful at it and has a spirit to want to raise others up and empower others and help them, through this season. I I do want to give a, uh, a shout out here from someone who attended our orientation in January of this year. This is a person who has served with other organizations around the world, and at the end of the week of orientation of fundraising training, his comment, it sounds a little over the top, but, and I'm saying this because, this isn't my, I don't lead fundraising. Yeah, Carly does. But this guy said that our fundraising training is by far. The best training he has ever received in fundraising. Wow. That's awesome. That's the quote. Dang. Dang. That's the quote. Carly, great job. just add that. Thank you. It's a collaborative effort, so we have a lot of people who are invested in the success of our fundraisers, of our workers, who are what we call on deputation when they're in their fundraising season before they go to the field. And, we've really just decided that we wanna give them as many tools and resources and training as possible, so that they can be successful in this. Carly, can you comment just briefly on the advantage of having all of this in-house? Like it's our training, it's our people who are doing the coaching, and can you comment a little bit on that? Sure, yeah, we did use to outsource some of this and I think the advantage to bringing it in-house means that it's all one collective people who are involved in this person's journey. And so we have a vested interest in seeing them 📍 reach their fundraising goals. We then compare them with a coach sometimes even on their same team that they'll be serving We have coaches who are, living and serving on the field with us, and then they can form and strengthen bonds ahead of that person coming to the field and just really welcome them and orient them to the team and the team culture early on as well. So it really just solidifies their connection to one collective from the very I love that. That's awesome. awesome. Cool. Well this has been really fun guys. I like genuinely think like my perspective towards money and fundraising, like you guys have effectively changed my perspective. Wow. That's very very significantly. And so, um, thanks for doing that guys. And if you guys are listening, you made it to the end. Thanks. This has definitely been a long one, but been a really fun one. So if you are on the fence about serving somewhere around the world and wanting to cross-cultural work, but fundraising is a barrier, I would. Encourage you just to apply and talk with Carly or Mark or one of our other mobilizers. 'cause they will walk you through every single step about how to get it to the field in a sustainable and impactful and realistic way. That hopefully helps you grow in your relationship with Jesus and your network. So thank you guys. We got three more episodes planned and the torn between podcast, our official name, And so, come join for those in the future.

EP 2: Torn Between Leaving Well or Running Away From Your Messy Family

Episode 2 | 49 Minutes | Sept 23, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

When you feel called to cross-cultural work, the hardest part isn’t always fundraising, language learning, or even moving overseas, but navigating family. Parents, siblings, and loved ones all carry expectations, fears, and hopes for your future, and those can collide with your calling in messy ways.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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In this episode, Michael, Mark, and Carly get real about what it’s like to navigate family relationships with a desire to serve abroad. From parental fears to sibling dynamics to the tension of honoring family while stepping into obedience, this conversation is raw, honest, and deeply personal.

If you’ve ever wrestled with how to move forward when your family doesn’t fully understand your calling, this episode is for you.

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What You’ll Learn:

• How family influence, especially parents, can shape or even stall decisions to serve abroad.

• Why open, prayerful, and ongoing conversations with loved ones matter (and how to have them).

• Practical ways to navigate fear, sacrifice, and the reality of leaving family while still honoring them.

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

   Hey guys, just wanted to quickly welcome you to episode one of the Torn Between Podcasts. It's a podcast where we dive into some of the biggest fears and questions that we've seen a lot of people struggle with when they are pursuing the idea of cross-cultural work and doing it abroad. So, uh, welcome to episode one.

  This episode is all about relationships. And so if you're somebody that. Is in a relationship or maybe would like to be, but you're a little fearful of how moving abroad and doing cross-cultural work and entering this type of work would affect that this episode's for you. And so we dive into a bunch of examples, a lot of fears, and um, a lot of really good questions.

  And Mark and Carly have a lot of wisdom about this. So, um, buckle up. Hope you enjoy this first episode of Torn Between.

   Hey everyone and welcome to this miniseries of the Last and Change

  podcast.

  Today we are gonna be talking about, a topic that. Maybe makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but everyone absolutely, everyone feels and thinks about, which is relationships and the tension between do I stay for a relationship or do I go abroad, which is what I also want to do.

  And what does, how does that impact my opportunity for relationships in the future?

  So today with me, I have my host, 

  Carly.

  Hello, 

  And Mark. 

  Hi, I'm Mark. 

  I have

  a

  few things and a few questions that I personally can bring in this space, which feels a little uncomfortable because I'm like, all right, time to talk about my love life with Mark and Carly.

  Yeah, I know. I love you guys. I feel very safe with you guys. Would you guys like to give any context, to this before we dive in?  

  just that this tension between dating and serving is something like Michael said that I think is pretty universal nowadays, especially as we're recruiting younger

  potential workers to work with one collective. They're always thinking forward.

  They're thinking about their future, they're thinking about their career, they're thinking about potential relationships, and they're evaluating the risk and reward,

  for making these decisions. And I think it's something that we talk through with many people on the front end. And then we also see a lot of relationships and love blossom on the field.

  So it's fun to see that side of it too, but it's a pretty common theme that we see. 

  Yeah. 

  Yeah. Yeah. I am talking with this, person right now who. I started to talk conversation with her about eight months ago. She had a dream that she was maybe supposed to go to a certain country overseas.

  And so I've had a number of conversations with her. She filled out an application, references things were looking good. And then a couple weeks ago she says, I met someone.  

  And she's not going abroad anymore. 

  She is wrestling with that question. 

  Okay. She feels the tension. 

  She feels the tension. Yes. She not good. It looks like she might be leaning toward No for now. Okay. But she's wrestling with this tension of love and, her sense of calling. 

  Yeah. I feel like that is the exact tension I was feeling like a year ago now almost.

  A year ago I was in a relationship with somebody. We were dating maybe six months at that point, but I ended up traveling to Santiago, Spain. Ended up meeting some really amazing people that work for one collective there and just bonded. We were just chatting, doing life, and I shared that it is one of my goals to move abroad at some point and not just move abroad anywhere, but move abroad to a place that I can learn the language through immersion.

  Because I really have this sense of like, I want to be able to meet people where they are. 'cause I feel like most. People in other cultures with other languages always learn English and they're always meeting me where I am, which I'm really grateful for. But I, I, at least with one language, I wanna be able to try and meet somebody else where they are.

  And Spanish is a great language to learn, especially even here in America. Just share some of this with Dusty and Jordy and then ended up coming back after vacation. And then Dusty reached out and he's like, Hey Michael, can we jump on a call? And I was like, sure, we'd love to just hang out. And we jumped on a call and he said, pretty much I wanted to get on a call with you just to show how serious I am about this.

  But you shared some of these desires that you have and I think that you're a really cool person and I really would love to do life with you, at least for a time. Would you want to move here to Santiago live life with me and work remotely? And he literally like laid out all of these things about how he could help me convince my boss and upper leadership to let me work remotely for a year and how it'd be beneficial.

  And he's like, totally here to help you, like figure out the visa and everything. Like he, he went through every barrier and I was like, wow, I feel so valued and wanted, and also you're doing this to help me achieve a goal that I want. And so it was just like above and beyond and it was really significant.

  But I was dating this girl and I really wrestled with, do I go abroad? And leave her. Or do I stay in this relationship, which is a genuine, like good opportunity that I had right then. And I wrestled with God for a long time with that and had conversations with her. And the conversations ended with we either get married and we move abroad together, which like first year married, moving in abroad does not sound like you're setting yourself up for success.

  Two, I was not ready to get 

  married. Yeah, that's a big 

  Yeah, yeah. Or three you move abroad and we break up. And that was it. That was where we, we landed after a lot of conversations that were really hard. And so I ended up landing in the space of, okay, I'm going to choose to continue to pursue this relationship to see where it goes.

  And, 'cause I wasn't ready to call quits on it, but I also was not ready to be like, let's get hitched. But now here I am a year later and out of that relationship, which is sad, now I'm reconsidering. Do I move abroad now? Is this the time? 

  I just want to pick up on a phrase you used you said you were really wrestling with God, I just wanna say this whole topic, we can have, specific points we cover and things we look at. But this really is a matter of discernment and a lot of discernment happens outside of here are the points to consider.

  And so I really appreciate your, you introducing the realm of discernment and even spirituality. Like it's an invisible thing. Yeah. Trying to figure out these things. God's will call it. 

  Let me ask you guys a question about that, how do you guys walk with applicants who have made this decision and like so many different applicants, how have you walked with them and helped them to discern what God's will is for them? 

  Yeah, that's a really big question to consider, and it's something that I think we're all perpetually doing in our own lives, right?

  Yeah. So we're just. A guide for people. We can't make that discernment decision for them in any way, shape or form. We are just supporting them really through this process as they're wrestling with these questions with God directly and with wise counsel in their lives and with maybe a person that they're in a relationship with or considering being in a relationship with, prior to going.

  But I think it's really important to remember what was the calling moment in your life? How did God reveal that to you? And has that changed in any way? Or is that a separate thing from this newfound exciting relationship possibility in your life? Because remembering. The calling I think is an important exercise for people to do.

  'cause it is easy to get cloudy in that when something else pops up, even when like another type of distraction comes during this process that can also cloud your vision for the future and keep you from remembering or stay in the course of your calling. So I think that's a really key conversation to have is just helping them reflect back on what was this initial calling, how did it manifest, what did it look like?

  And what is, my vision for the, my future in ministry. Whether that's going to be, vocational ministry or ministry outside of a vocation. 

  Yeah. I would, add a few things. Maybe a curve ball, so like calling, yes, but sometimes God adjusts his calling or I was talking with this one person who had this dream, same person I mentioned before, had this dream of going to a certain location and

  halfway through our process, we came to the realization that this dream would, did not represent her ultimate destination, but it was to get her moving forward on her path of exploring. Absolutely. So she ended up wanting to go somewhere else before she met someone. The other thing I would say about calling is, I'll just share a definition that Carly and I use a lot in mobilization, and that is that calling is essentially stewarding your next steps in life, relationships, and career. That is so helpful because calling doesn't have to be this big. Oh, God's called me to reach the poor in a certain city in Ethiopia. Maybe God is simply calling me now in my life to take the next step with this person that I'm, I have a friendship with, whatever.

  And you don't have to figure it all out. You simply have to discern, listen different ways for what is that next step I'm  

  Yeah.  

  If they're in a spot where they have a potential relationship on the horizon or they've entered a relationship and now they're at this crossroads of making a decision of whether to stay in a relationship or whether to move forward with, you know, their initial commitment or their initial desire to serve overseas, we also have to look at or help them.

  Explore,

  what

  is this person that's now in their life? What is their vision for their future? And are those two aligned? Or are they in conflict in some way? And are the feelings around this person overpowering? Or, just have a bigger presence in their life in this decision making than, and looking at.

  Their futures together and whether those will compliment each other, whether that's in ministry or any other thing, like whether it's like where in the world do you wanna live, whether it's, if you wanna have kids, like all those things are obviously super important discussions to have in a relationship.

  And thinking about your vision for your future might have to come earlier in a relationship's timeline when it involves somebody who is considering serving overseas. Because that changes the dynamic of the relationship so much, that they might have to have those discussions at an earlier point, than maybe they would naturally. 

  Maybe not like first date type thing, but  

  maybe though, 

  third, like, hey, just a heads up thinking to move abroad. 

  Yeah. 

  as we're developing this relationship. That's a, I get Yeah, that's a big deal.

  Definitely. So Carla, you mentioned, like looking back at the original space where like you were called. And so I'm just curious can you guys like walk me through that? Like I am in this process and I could think of ideas and spaces where like my original calling was, but I dunno, it was missions night at a church camp maybe?

  Or was it while I was studying at university? I don't know. So I'm curious, like, use me as a case study. How would you guys walk somebody through

   So you have had an experience of some kind with God where you are sensing a call to serve? 

  Yeah, it's super general though. Like I feel like I've been called to love people well wherever I 

  Mm. 

  And I think I'm been really uniquely equipped. And so like there's specific spaces that I just can do that better because of my experience I've had. But I also don't wanna be like limited to only trying to serve in the ways that I feel comfortable or

  capable. of

  doing it.

  'cause I

  know God can use us in really unique ways that we're not

  expecting.  

  What's happening within me right now is I am just automatically putting my, not putting myself, I'm in this conversation with Michael Proctor.

  Yeah. And I am now seeking to like, invite you into to walk with one collective and work with us. Yeah. So what I would do is I have just a series of questions that I ask, and we don't have to make this an official interview, right now, but it's like I would ask you things like, um. What are your skills? 

  Yeah.

  Which I know when I first came to one collective, that was one of the first questions you asked me.

  And I said, videography. And at the time I literally was like, barely, I barely knew what I was doing. And 

  knew. I think I remember 

  and you were like, great, you wanna go to Bulgaria, Albanian, South Africa And 19-year-old

  me was like, heck yeah.

  It

  was a developing skill.

  Yeah.

  And luckily, like that trip was postponed a couple times, thank God, because my skills developed a

  lot

  during the times.

  It was

  Well. But yeah, that was a really helpful  

  question.

  Maybe

  partly the way I'm, I'm what I want say here is that for someone exploring like it's, we ask a series of questions to really get to know them as well as we can, and then see if there is a pathway that makes sense for them to work maybe with one of our locations around the world doing something that you are really passionate about.

  I see. And then we would ask are you drawn to any parts of the world? Yeah. Are you drawn to work with any certain demographics? But it takes time. Yeah. There's no one interview that brings us to an answer. Yeah. It takes time reflecting prayer, but that has to happen over time. 

  Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I know we chatted off and on I think it was like three years before I ended up going 

  abroad. Really? Okay. I think so. Yeah. Partly COVID was in the mix. I  

  that definitely delayed. it like 

  I tell a lot of people that time is a great clarifier.

   As it is with relationships as well. And I think, I mean, you're sensing a pull at this. Point in your life or even a year ago in your life to have a new experience to serve and use your skills in a new context and a new capacity. And I think like you don't wanna ignore that pole, that sense that God might be opening a door for you somewhere and asking you to walk through.

  And so then you have to weigh what are your other values in your life? What are things

  that

  might be really good that might be enriching to your life, but. That, may limit you, from being able to have the fullest experience here and relationships may or may not be a part of that equation.

  And like last year when you evaluated this, it was a really big part of this equation to the point where you made the decision to wait knowing too that this invitation might, remain open. Where like this relationship needed your current attention and the invitation to serve or to move or to have this new experience, could be on the table later.

  That you might be able to take that up at a different point. And so I think like looking at, the timing of these things is also really important as you're evaluating. This potential relationship or current relationship and the opportunity to serve.  

  It's kind of an all encompassing process.

  It's not something that we're essentially just trying to figure out. There is that part of it. We want to use our conscious mind to figure things out. But Gabor mate, my favorite. Canadian physician says that our conscious minds are only 6% of our evaluative faculties. the rest of it is all internal.

  It's subconscious. Trying to figure things out with absolute certainty and clarity often isn't possible. And I will sometimes share with people, a quote by Mother Theresa where, this ethicist, I forget his name, asked her on a visit to Calcutta, will you please pray for me? She said, how would you like me to pray for you?

  Pray that I have certainty about a matter. And she laughed and she said, he said, she said, that's the last thing I'm gonna pray about for you. And he said, you always seem like so confident and certain. And she said, no, I don't have certainty. I have trust. And so very often, many of our people will get to a place where maybe they're 80% certain about the way forward, or 65 or 91, but there has to come a step where you're a place where you're gonna step into the unknown with a level of trust in the God that you are in relationship  

  yeah, like how do we get to that place? Because I'm reflecting and thinking about, I was at times 50, 50 at times 20, 80, and I felt like I was just fluctuating so much. What percentage do I hit before I make that choice? And

  then

  how spell formula 

  is,  

  I wanna formula  

  I know sometimes  

  our

  actions actually proceed like our feelings. In this area, we have to take an action and place our trust in the Lord by taking a step forward and knowing that maybe our feelings will follow. so it's not always that it's leading with oh, I feel like I

  can

  and then I'll make that decision and then I'll take that action.

  So I think it's about sensing and discerning where he's calling you to be obedient in like just one step. Yeah. And having faith in the future. And having faith that like, is God really a good father? Who wants the best thing for you in your life and wants to give you good gifts and not just teach you hard lessons.

  That was a thing I had to learn through relationships, through experiences that I had, that he wasn't just putting relationships in my life to like teach me hard lessons and help me like sharpen, myself and become holier really. He wanted to give me good gifts to bless me, and that also involves saying no to a relationship.

  It involves saying no to some other things that. I, was questioning the value of, and was questioning whether these were from God. But when I really saw him as a good father who wanted what's absolutely best for me and wanted to bless me, then I think it, things became clearer, in my life.

  And I was able to move forward and trust knowing that good things were ahead. Not that I had said no to something. So then that was my one and only chance. But that good things were truly ahead and, and that played out, in my life and good things were ahead. So

  I think, that trust

  in father and your good

  father thing to  

  remember.

  That's hard to remember because I think oftentimes, and I think a lot of other people probably feel this, that there's one right answer. Yeah. And I think oftentimes God is more like, Hey, you have. Free will and I have created you with free will and choice. And I want you to choose me, but I also want you to like, to use the power of free will, which I've given you, and to choose what is good and what you also desire.

  And I, and I want that to align also with what I desire. And I think the fear is I have two doors that are open and it feels like God's opened both of them. But I still could choose the wrong one and then like God would be disappointed in me, life would be terrible if I choose like the wrong one.

  And I'm always fearful of will I choose correctly? 

  I you're right that's a pretty common, way of seeing this topic. Sometimes I tell people, if it's someone whose heart seems to be really in a great place, I will tell them, you're not gonna miss it. I don't think God is up there with these two doors and better pick the right one, or you're gonna get on my bad list.

  I don't think he does that. I think that's a false construct. He's a kind father and he wants to give us good things. Yeah. And he will in this area as well. It's a big area, big topic like relationships and going overseas, but I don't think we're gonna miss it. Hmm. 

  Okay. A few things are coming to mind and a lot of fears I think are coming to mind for me. One is the fear of making a decision too quickly because of the pressure of trying to move abroad, which is kind of what I mentioned with this girl I was dating last year, that the decision we came to was we get married and move abroad and I was really struggling with the sense of is this a good motivator to expedite the decision of getting married or does this relationship and decision need more time to be made? 'Cause I could see a lot of people, maybe you guys, I, I'm curious, have you guys seen people make a decision to get married or to save the relationship and then go abroad and move together or.

  I

  don't know. Have you guys seen that story play out

  before?  '

  I have seen that before. But I think that's a temptation of a lot of people is, to rush so that you can kind of make both things possible. 

  Yeah.

  Right. Because that's like ideal. I don't have to choose, I just get both best of both worlds.  

  Right? Yes.

  I

  would

  caution,

  however Okay.

  that

  what are the negative consequences of waiting to make a decision and thinking through? All those potential consequences. Yeah. And evaluating whether they're worth actually rushing into that decision, because I think in most cases, time as Mark said, is actually helpful.

  And that applies to relationships too. And it also could apply to the decision making process of choosing to serve overseas. 

  But Carly, I'm getting older, like 

  the

  clock is  

  ticking. Like, isn't that true? 

  To some extent, sure. But, um, if you look at the big picture of things and the big picture of your life,

  um, keep in perspective.

  It is hard to keep in perspective, but. The amount of time that we're talking about here is minimal as you look at the whole scope of your life. And if you made a potentially, serious decision that would have real consequences too soon, that can be, much more detrimental than waiting another year to make that decision.

  And maybe you'd land in that same place, but maybe you wouldn't and you would've had that extra time to sew into your relationship too, and to get to know each other better and to evaluate more if you're compatible long term, and if this is truly God's plan for you and for that person. So I think actually time is on your side here.

  And rushing into a decision is strongly advised against in. 

  you know, Michael,

  you said I'm getting old. Okay. Yeah. To the degree that, that's like a legitimate perspective of yours right now, what emotions are going on within you regarding that? 

  Yeah. I would say really bluntly how I feel right now is. I am 25 and like the feeling very specifically I have is my brother's married and he and his wife want to have kids

  soon. Yeah. And I

  want to have my kids grow up with his kids 'cause we're identical twins and it'd be so fun.

  But I am not married and I want to go spend a year abroad and then come back and thinking through everything.

  I'm like, all right, I at least gotta date somebody for a year. And then we at least gotta be married for two years probably before we pop out any kids. And this timeline's looking like I'm not gonna have kids until I'm like 30, 32 maybe. And that's if the timeline works out perfectly. And so it feels like right now I could go on a date with this girl, I'm met at the coffee shop Monday and like start that relationship and explore it.

  Or I can go abroad, spend a year abroad. Growing and experiencing different cultures and experiencing God in new ways and then coming back and like looking for somebody, but also like, I guess I could meet somebody while I'm there. Exactly. There's nothing against that. But it just feels like that is, much less plausible to happen.

  But I also just genuinely don't know, like I am, I don't know. What does living in Spain look like? What does dating in Spain look like? I have zero idea. I don't even know Spanish now. How would I talk to the person? 

  Yeah. Boy, that's a lot there, when you moved from Lincoln, which where you're from, I think. Up to Elgin, Illinois a few years  

  Yeah.  

  Did you think that Oh, man. To go to Elgin? There might not. I might miss out on people who are in Lincoln. That could be part of my future. 

  Yeah. I didn't think that because Lincoln's this tiny rural town and I'm like, Elgin's got way better possibilities 

  Yeah. But I'm thinking like, like if someone, I was thinking of this earlier, 

  but that is a good question. If 

  Someone chooses to go to a college in Indiana. Alright. They choose therefore not to go to a college in anywhere else, like in California.

  Okay. So that means this pool of potential future partners, it doesn't exist for them. The word decision comes from it's either Greek or Latin word means to cut off any other possibilities. So you go here and that kind of becomes your pool of potential partners, at least for a while. And the mission's question is a bigger, on a larger scale, right?

  You're going to a different culture, different country. But the thing is, we don't go or stay. We don't know who God, what God's up to. Absolutely. We don't know who those potential people are. For us. We have no idea. And so that's where trust has to play a  

  role. Gotta have faith 

  And surrendering your control of your own timeline, of the expectations of your timeline in your head.

  I mean, when I was formerly engaged at like age 25 and I thought, okay, here's a vision for my future, a specific timeline for my future that I could see play out. That was kind of in line with my expectations. Then when I chose to break off that engagement, that was a full surrender of the future. Yeah.

  Because it was like, what if this never happens again? What if I, what if it takes me 10 years to find someone? What if I, just said goodbye to my only potential for 

  Yeah. And that's the fear is I will never find love again.

  fear.  

  That is the fear Many people have. But I think that is what we are called to surrender, whether or not we're serving vocationally, overseas or whether we're staying here.

  We as followers of Jesus are handing over that timeline, those expectations for our own life to where God would lead us. 

  Yeah, it's, if I haven't found the person, the right person for me yet, if I go overseas another country, will I miss my right person? 

  Oh yeah. I felt that. 

  Yeah.

  You could ask the question, the flip of that, will staying prevent me from meeting my future spouse? Oh, interesting. Because they're both legit.  

  But that is definitely a feeling of I think maybe Elgin has the right person for me.

  There's a lot of people here that are similar to me and like, like-minded and I don't know what people are like abroad, wherever I'd move and so will I be able to find somebody like-minded, if the only Americans are the ones that are my team and my team's only 10 people, that's a small pool to choose from. 

  Is that, are you limiting yourself to  

  Maybe

  I am, I don't know, but like also the idea of dating somebody else that grew up in a whole different culture and knows is. Other language that I don't know how to speak yet, but we'll learn is really intimidating

  in 

  is intimidating. 

  Okay. Okay.  

  and and then what do you do?

  Do I just choose to live the rest of my life there with them? Do, then they move to the US and I mean, those are all questions you'd have to wrestle through while dating.  

  and

  those are questions that a number of our workers overseas are asking really?

  Because they meet someone overseas and love happens and, and then those questions become front and center.  

  Yeah. 

  I think on the front end this is a common question, will going will fulfilling this commitment, this calling in my life, mean sacrificing my dream of getting married. Will it mean giving up that dream forever of having a family?

  And I think you have to come to a point where you are okay with it going either direction because God will bring you to the place that he wants you and use you in the ways that He wants you and bring the right community around you and bring the right people in your life if you are walking in obedience to him.

  And if you are living in communion with him. And  

  so

  whether you go or stay, 

  whether you go or stay, right? Like you could end up single here too, even if you want to be married and want to have a family. And also trusting that he knows your desires, that he wants good things for you, and that if he brings you the right person, that will happen here or there too. And so I think like being comfortable or being willing to live in that space, live in that uncertainty and still take those steps forward. Is the right mindset to be in. And then what we often see is people are surprised with who God brings to their path.  

  Yeah.  

  happens  

  whether that's, whether that's a national, in the country where they're serving, whether that's, an American either with one collective or, you know, in some other capacity living overseas, or whether that's somebody they meet online, even like here in the States, and then have to determine where, what their futures will look like together.

  It doesn't mean closing the door to love altogether. And we've seen that time and time again that when people leave for the field single, that does definitely not mean that they're gonna remain single on the field. I 

  I

  think I, like me and maybe everyone else, and my position just needs to keep remembering that yeah, moving abroad does not mean you will be single, it actually really does not change hardly  

  It's almost irrelevant.  

  Wow. You, You,

  would say it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I will keep saying those words. Mark says it's irrelevant. You'll meet somebody  

  I, I, I mean, I mean there are different factors of course, but I don't think it directly affects whether you will find a long-term loving  

  relationship.

  Yeah, that makes sense. 

  And several of our leaders around the world have actually become relationship experts, um, by seeing, many of their teammates navigate this process for themselves and provide counsel and coaching and walking with them, supporting them through this process. Whether that means they're like.

  in a long distance relationship or they're navigating the challenges of that, or whether they meet someone on the field and they're discerning what could be the future here. Whether they're just, struggling with singleness and loneliness. That's something that a lot of our field leaders have come to.

  Yeah. Kind of embody like as a mentor role in, in many of our workers' lives. Just observing those relational, 

  Is there a team that has the highest marriage, like success rate or dating success

  rate  

  You want us to name teams?  

  Maybe

  not. No. 

  Some 

  is funny though. That is it makes sense.

  Yeah, because a lot of, like the best season of life to move abroad and have this experience is like right. When you're graduating school and you don't have a career, you don't have a family. You're not 

  the least amount of  

  And that's what I feel right now. I'm like, this is the best time of my life to, to try and do this and get this experience. 

  Absolutely.

  And when I talk to college students in classrooms, I will make this very point that this is the optimal time in five years from now. I say this, five years from now or eight years from now, you will look back on this time and you'll say, boy, I was so free then. Yeah. And yet, and so it makes it an optimal time Yeah.

  To go. 

  Yeah. So the theme I'm hearing over and over again is surrender. And trust God with your future. Whether that is you stay or you go

  and

  have patience.

  I feel like those are the two things I keep hearing you guys say, which are really hard things to do. I feel like I have things that call me out on both of those. Often, and I'm like, man, I've not surrendered this thing. Or I've retaken control of these decisions in my life all the time. And I feel like it's always a process of re,

  re, surrendering things to God.

  And that's

  really hard,

  but it is necessary. 

  Yeah. I would just say to that, Michael, that your tendency to like take things back, God doesn't look at you and judge you for that.

  You're fine. You can relax and you're fine with that.

  Just continue to listen love and his words to you and continue moving forward in your process. He doesn't condemn us. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't shame us. He's kind. Yeah. He's kind to you no matter what.  

  I just think of like prodigal son coming home. And hopefully you're not to the extreme of the prodigal son, but like, it kind of is that way.

  Like God is always delighted when you come back to him with, at whatever

  level it

  is. Okay. So, as I'm considering moving abroad, I would look at different organizations and I've found that organizations have very different beliefs on dating.

  And some are even saying you are not allowed to date if you commit to going abroad for say, a year because they say that's a distraction, which I would agree with, but might also be frustrated about. So what's one collective's perspective or take on that, and how do they navigate that in a healthy way?

  Because I think there are some like, healthy boundaries with that. 

  Yeah, I think that's a great question to be asking. One collective has chosen not to have an official policy on dating because it is such an individual question that you have to wrestle with yourself and you have to think through what's right for your situation and how the Lord is speaking to you and working in your life.

  So we don't have a policy that outlines like what's allowed and what's not allowed. However, I think it's really important to have open communication with your supervisor, which in many cases is your team leader here, with one collective about, your vision for the future, your desires, your current relationship status, challenges in your relationship.

  Because this isn't just a job, it is a life that you're gonna be living in community with people who you're serving alongside, and you should be willing to share. All aspects of your life together. And so often our leaders can offer really good wisdom or other team members who have gone through this maybe are, who are a few steps ahead.

  They can offer really good wisdom to consider and just be like a supportive ear. Somebody who can, sit with you and walk with you on this road. And in some cases our teams do have guidelines, different teams with different guidelines about how focused on language learning and culture adaptation and adjustment you need to be for the first six months or so.

  And dating might be discouraged during that period,

  or  

  be a huge  

  it could be  

  distraction. From like important things to actually  

  Yeah. And so having that open line of communication, just from the beginning, from even the application process, I think is really helpful in understanding what's gonna work best in that particular country, where you're looking at service and with the team dynamics that are at play there.

  And then also, knowing that your team leaders and the people who are around you and in community with you, want the best for you. They don't wanna limit you. They're not trying to prohibit you from finding love. They really want what's best for you. And so they're supporting you in this whole journey, and they're just trying to, provide the best outcomes for you. 

  Yeah. I would add that, just in general, this is one collective general. We have really. Kind, policies across the board that, most of our, I think almost all of our people find to be very helpful and not constricting and life giving, and this is an example of that.

   Yeah, I agree. I think it's freeing. 

  It's freeing. I'll just add too, Carly to what you said. You already said this, but like in mobilization, our job as the, as the gateway, we're the first people to talk with new people exploring us. Yeah. It is really our, initially our responsibility to get to know people as well as we can, including their relationship.

  dynamics.  

  Okay, What are some other questions? I or somebody in my position should be asking as it relates to relationships and serving a abroad? 

  The only one I would add is, of course you're single Michael, so you're not asking a question as a married man, but a married couple when they apply to us, and are accepted, we want, we look for them to be married for about a year, is the general policy before we would want them to deploy.

  I see. Exactly. And so there is that, that, that is kind of a, a timeframe that is, I think in our policy or manual somewhere. It is, but it's also not a rigid one. Every case we look at individually, we've made. E exceptions probably going one direction or the other on that. And again, the purpose is we care about people and want the best for them and for our teams.

  And so that's a policy we have for married couples. Okay,  

  So if you're engaged or married, then you'd be looking at possibly extending, you know, your onboarding, to like make sure that you're in the healthiest space possible and that you've had time to live together and like, you know, interact with each other on, on a familiar territory before moving

  to

  Unfamiliar.  

  I see. Yeah, that makes

  This has been super helpful guys, and as I continue my journey, I will continue to ask you guys 'cause I have access to you and you guys have so much wisdom and experience in this space, and so I really value your guys' input on

  this

  and I think a lot of other people will too.

  And so, um, I just wanna like summarize like the highlight of this, which I think is when you're looking at serving abroad and you feel that tension of, do I, the tension between dating and the desire to serve abroad. The answer to that would you say is surrender your desire to God and surrender this decision to God and be patient, would you say like that's, that's the key takeaway? 

  Yeah, I think that's, that's, on the right track for sure. And I think, another thing like truth that you can rest in is that, the choices that you make, the path that you follow will be a part of the road, the journey that leads you to your potential spouse and to God's will for your life, and choosing to do one thing or another will not keep you from love, and it will not necessarily lead you to love. It's all just a part of God's will and how that's manifesting in your life. 

  I'll just add the phrase, put your

  yes on the table to whatever God leads you to do.

   I will continue

  to do that

  to the best of my ability.

  Well thank you guys for listening to this episode of The Last and Change podcast in this miniseries we're gonna be tackling some more hard questions that likely a lot of people thinking about serving abroad are probably asking. And so, um, be looking for the next one coming up in a couple weeks.

  And, if you want resources, there's resources and episode description. And if you're looking at serving, feel free to sign up for a time to talk with Carly or Mark they would love to walk you through this process.

EP 1: Torn Between Dating and Serving Abroad

Episode 1 | 49 Minutes | Sept 9, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You're thinking about moving abroad to serve, but you're also in a relationship. Or you want to be. And now you're torn between the two.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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If you feel this, then you're not alone. Join us as we unpack one of the most complicated and emotional questions people wrestle with: How does my relationship or desire for one fit into a calling to cross-cultural work? In this episode, we share personal stories and honest reflection, we explore what it means to surrender our timelines, trust God, and make space for both desire and discernment.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• How to navigate the emotional tension between pursuing love and following a calling

• Why trusting God with your timeline doesn’t mean giving up your desires

• What it looks like to wrestle honestly with questions about relationships, faith, and the future

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

   Hey guys, just wanted to quickly welcome you to episode one of the Torn Between Podcasts. It's a podcast where we dive into some of the biggest fears and questions that we've seen a lot of people struggle with when they are pursuing the idea of cross-cultural work and doing it abroad. So, uh, welcome to episode one.

  This episode is all about relationships. And so if you're somebody that. Is in a relationship or maybe would like to be, but you're a little fearful of how moving abroad and doing cross-cultural work and entering this type of work would affect that this episode's for you. And so we dive into a bunch of examples, a lot of fears, and um, a lot of really good questions.

  And Mark and Carly have a lot of wisdom about this. So, um, buckle up. Hope you enjoy this first episode of Torn Between.

   Hey everyone and welcome to this miniseries of the Last and Change

  podcast.

  Today we are gonna be talking about, a topic that. Maybe makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but everyone absolutely, everyone feels and thinks about, which is relationships and the tension between do I stay for a relationship or do I go abroad, which is what I also want to do.

  And what does, how does that impact my opportunity for relationships in the future?

  So today with me, I have my host, 

  Carly.

  Hello, 

  And Mark. 

  Hi, I'm Mark. 

  I have

  a

  few things and a few questions that I personally can bring in this space, which feels a little uncomfortable because I'm like, all right, time to talk about my love life with Mark and Carly.

  Yeah, I know. I love you guys. I feel very safe with you guys. Would you guys like to give any context, to this before we dive in?  

  just that this tension between dating and serving is something like Michael said that I think is pretty universal nowadays, especially as we're recruiting younger

  potential workers to work with one collective. They're always thinking forward.

  They're thinking about their future, they're thinking about their career, they're thinking about potential relationships, and they're evaluating the risk and reward,

  for making these decisions. And I think it's something that we talk through with many people on the front end. And then we also see a lot of relationships and love blossom on the field.

  So it's fun to see that side of it too, but it's a pretty common theme that we see. 

  Yeah. 

  Yeah. Yeah. I am talking with this, person right now who. I started to talk conversation with her about eight months ago. She had a dream that she was maybe supposed to go to a certain country overseas.

  And so I've had a number of conversations with her. She filled out an application, references things were looking good. And then a couple weeks ago she says, I met someone.  

  And she's not going abroad anymore. 

  She is wrestling with that question. 

  Okay. She feels the tension. 

  She feels the tension. Yes. She not good. It looks like she might be leaning toward No for now. Okay. But she's wrestling with this tension of love and, her sense of calling. 

  Yeah. I feel like that is the exact tension I was feeling like a year ago now almost.

  A year ago I was in a relationship with somebody. We were dating maybe six months at that point, but I ended up traveling to Santiago, Spain. Ended up meeting some really amazing people that work for one collective there and just bonded. We were just chatting, doing life, and I shared that it is one of my goals to move abroad at some point and not just move abroad anywhere, but move abroad to a place that I can learn the language through immersion.

  Because I really have this sense of like, I want to be able to meet people where they are. 'cause I feel like most. People in other cultures with other languages always learn English and they're always meeting me where I am, which I'm really grateful for. But I, I, at least with one language, I wanna be able to try and meet somebody else where they are.

  And Spanish is a great language to learn, especially even here in America. Just share some of this with Dusty and Jordy and then ended up coming back after vacation. And then Dusty reached out and he's like, Hey Michael, can we jump on a call? And I was like, sure, we'd love to just hang out. And we jumped on a call and he said, pretty much I wanted to get on a call with you just to show how serious I am about this.

  But you shared some of these desires that you have and I think that you're a really cool person and I really would love to do life with you, at least for a time. Would you want to move here to Santiago live life with me and work remotely? And he literally like laid out all of these things about how he could help me convince my boss and upper leadership to let me work remotely for a year and how it'd be beneficial.

  And he's like, totally here to help you, like figure out the visa and everything. Like he, he went through every barrier and I was like, wow, I feel so valued and wanted, and also you're doing this to help me achieve a goal that I want. And so it was just like above and beyond and it was really significant.

  But I was dating this girl and I really wrestled with, do I go abroad? And leave her. Or do I stay in this relationship, which is a genuine, like good opportunity that I had right then. And I wrestled with God for a long time with that and had conversations with her. And the conversations ended with we either get married and we move abroad together, which like first year married, moving in abroad does not sound like you're setting yourself up for success.

  Two, I was not ready to get 

  married. Yeah, that's a big 

  Yeah, yeah. Or three you move abroad and we break up. And that was it. That was where we, we landed after a lot of conversations that were really hard. And so I ended up landing in the space of, okay, I'm going to choose to continue to pursue this relationship to see where it goes.

  And, 'cause I wasn't ready to call quits on it, but I also was not ready to be like, let's get hitched. But now here I am a year later and out of that relationship, which is sad, now I'm reconsidering. Do I move abroad now? Is this the time? 

  I just want to pick up on a phrase you used you said you were really wrestling with God, I just wanna say this whole topic, we can have, specific points we cover and things we look at. But this really is a matter of discernment and a lot of discernment happens outside of here are the points to consider.

  And so I really appreciate your, you introducing the realm of discernment and even spirituality. Like it's an invisible thing. Yeah. Trying to figure out these things. God's will call it. 

  Let me ask you guys a question about that, how do you guys walk with applicants who have made this decision and like so many different applicants, how have you walked with them and helped them to discern what God's will is for them? 

  Yeah, that's a really big question to consider, and it's something that I think we're all perpetually doing in our own lives, right?

  Yeah. So we're just. A guide for people. We can't make that discernment decision for them in any way, shape or form. We are just supporting them really through this process as they're wrestling with these questions with God directly and with wise counsel in their lives and with maybe a person that they're in a relationship with or considering being in a relationship with, prior to going.

  But I think it's really important to remember what was the calling moment in your life? How did God reveal that to you? And has that changed in any way? Or is that a separate thing from this newfound exciting relationship possibility in your life? Because remembering. The calling I think is an important exercise for people to do.

  'cause it is easy to get cloudy in that when something else pops up, even when like another type of distraction comes during this process that can also cloud your vision for the future and keep you from remembering or stay in the course of your calling. So I think that's a really key conversation to have is just helping them reflect back on what was this initial calling, how did it manifest, what did it look like?

  And what is, my vision for the, my future in ministry. Whether that's going to be, vocational ministry or ministry outside of a vocation. 

  Yeah. I would, add a few things. Maybe a curve ball, so like calling, yes, but sometimes God adjusts his calling or I was talking with this one person who had this dream, same person I mentioned before, had this dream of going to a certain location and

  halfway through our process, we came to the realization that this dream would, did not represent her ultimate destination, but it was to get her moving forward on her path of exploring. Absolutely. So she ended up wanting to go somewhere else before she met someone. The other thing I would say about calling is, I'll just share a definition that Carly and I use a lot in mobilization, and that is that calling is essentially stewarding your next steps in life, relationships, and career. That is so helpful because calling doesn't have to be this big. Oh, God's called me to reach the poor in a certain city in Ethiopia. Maybe God is simply calling me now in my life to take the next step with this person that I'm, I have a friendship with, whatever.

  And you don't have to figure it all out. You simply have to discern, listen different ways for what is that next step I'm  

  Yeah.  

  If they're in a spot where they have a potential relationship on the horizon or they've entered a relationship and now they're at this crossroads of making a decision of whether to stay in a relationship or whether to move forward with, you know, their initial commitment or their initial desire to serve overseas, we also have to look at or help them.

  Explore,

  what

  is this person that's now in their life? What is their vision for their future? And are those two aligned? Or are they in conflict in some way? And are the feelings around this person overpowering? Or, just have a bigger presence in their life in this decision making than, and looking at.

  Their futures together and whether those will compliment each other, whether that's in ministry or any other thing, like whether it's like where in the world do you wanna live, whether it's, if you wanna have kids, like all those things are obviously super important discussions to have in a relationship.

  And thinking about your vision for your future might have to come earlier in a relationship's timeline when it involves somebody who is considering serving overseas. Because that changes the dynamic of the relationship so much, that they might have to have those discussions at an earlier point, than maybe they would naturally. 

  Maybe not like first date type thing, but  

  maybe though, 

  third, like, hey, just a heads up thinking to move abroad. 

  Yeah. 

  as we're developing this relationship. That's a, I get Yeah, that's a big deal.

  Definitely. So Carla, you mentioned, like looking back at the original space where like you were called. And so I'm just curious can you guys like walk me through that? Like I am in this process and I could think of ideas and spaces where like my original calling was, but I dunno, it was missions night at a church camp maybe?

  Or was it while I was studying at university? I don't know. So I'm curious, like, use me as a case study. How would you guys walk somebody through

   So you have had an experience of some kind with God where you are sensing a call to serve? 

  Yeah, it's super general though. Like I feel like I've been called to love people well wherever I 

  Mm. 

  And I think I'm been really uniquely equipped. And so like there's specific spaces that I just can do that better because of my experience I've had. But I also don't wanna be like limited to only trying to serve in the ways that I feel comfortable or

  capable. of

  doing it.

  'cause I

  know God can use us in really unique ways that we're not

  expecting.  

  What's happening within me right now is I am just automatically putting my, not putting myself, I'm in this conversation with Michael Proctor.

  Yeah. And I am now seeking to like, invite you into to walk with one collective and work with us. Yeah. So what I would do is I have just a series of questions that I ask, and we don't have to make this an official interview, right now, but it's like I would ask you things like, um. What are your skills? 

  Yeah.

  Which I know when I first came to one collective, that was one of the first questions you asked me.

  And I said, videography. And at the time I literally was like, barely, I barely knew what I was doing. And 

  knew. I think I remember 

  and you were like, great, you wanna go to Bulgaria, Albanian, South Africa And 19-year-old

  me was like, heck yeah.

  It

  was a developing skill.

  Yeah.

  And luckily, like that trip was postponed a couple times, thank God, because my skills developed a

  lot

  during the times.

  It was

  Well. But yeah, that was a really helpful  

  question.

  Maybe

  partly the way I'm, I'm what I want say here is that for someone exploring like it's, we ask a series of questions to really get to know them as well as we can, and then see if there is a pathway that makes sense for them to work maybe with one of our locations around the world doing something that you are really passionate about.

  I see. And then we would ask are you drawn to any parts of the world? Yeah. Are you drawn to work with any certain demographics? But it takes time. Yeah. There's no one interview that brings us to an answer. Yeah. It takes time reflecting prayer, but that has to happen over time. 

  Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I know we chatted off and on I think it was like three years before I ended up going 

  abroad. Really? Okay. I think so. Yeah. Partly COVID was in the mix. I  

  that definitely delayed. it like 

  I tell a lot of people that time is a great clarifier.

   As it is with relationships as well. And I think, I mean, you're sensing a pull at this. Point in your life or even a year ago in your life to have a new experience to serve and use your skills in a new context and a new capacity. And I think like you don't wanna ignore that pole, that sense that God might be opening a door for you somewhere and asking you to walk through.

  And so then you have to weigh what are your other values in your life? What are things

  that

  might be really good that might be enriching to your life, but. That, may limit you, from being able to have the fullest experience here and relationships may or may not be a part of that equation.

  And like last year when you evaluated this, it was a really big part of this equation to the point where you made the decision to wait knowing too that this invitation might, remain open. Where like this relationship needed your current attention and the invitation to serve or to move or to have this new experience, could be on the table later.

  That you might be able to take that up at a different point. And so I think like looking at, the timing of these things is also really important as you're evaluating. This potential relationship or current relationship and the opportunity to serve.  

  It's kind of an all encompassing process.

  It's not something that we're essentially just trying to figure out. There is that part of it. We want to use our conscious mind to figure things out. But Gabor mate, my favorite. Canadian physician says that our conscious minds are only 6% of our evaluative faculties. the rest of it is all internal.

  It's subconscious. Trying to figure things out with absolute certainty and clarity often isn't possible. And I will sometimes share with people, a quote by Mother Theresa where, this ethicist, I forget his name, asked her on a visit to Calcutta, will you please pray for me? She said, how would you like me to pray for you?

  Pray that I have certainty about a matter. And she laughed and she said, he said, she said, that's the last thing I'm gonna pray about for you. And he said, you always seem like so confident and certain. And she said, no, I don't have certainty. I have trust. And so very often, many of our people will get to a place where maybe they're 80% certain about the way forward, or 65 or 91, but there has to come a step where you're a place where you're gonna step into the unknown with a level of trust in the God that you are in relationship  

  yeah, like how do we get to that place? Because I'm reflecting and thinking about, I was at times 50, 50 at times 20, 80, and I felt like I was just fluctuating so much. What percentage do I hit before I make that choice? And

  then

  how spell formula 

  is,  

  I wanna formula  

  I know sometimes  

  our

  actions actually proceed like our feelings. In this area, we have to take an action and place our trust in the Lord by taking a step forward and knowing that maybe our feelings will follow. so it's not always that it's leading with oh, I feel like I

  can

  and then I'll make that decision and then I'll take that action.

  So I think it's about sensing and discerning where he's calling you to be obedient in like just one step. Yeah. And having faith in the future. And having faith that like, is God really a good father? Who wants the best thing for you in your life and wants to give you good gifts and not just teach you hard lessons.

  That was a thing I had to learn through relationships, through experiences that I had, that he wasn't just putting relationships in my life to like teach me hard lessons and help me like sharpen, myself and become holier really. He wanted to give me good gifts to bless me, and that also involves saying no to a relationship.

  It involves saying no to some other things that. I, was questioning the value of, and was questioning whether these were from God. But when I really saw him as a good father who wanted what's absolutely best for me and wanted to bless me, then I think it, things became clearer, in my life.

  And I was able to move forward and trust knowing that good things were ahead. Not that I had said no to something. So then that was my one and only chance. But that good things were truly ahead and, and that played out, in my life and good things were ahead. So

  I think, that trust

  in father and your good

  father thing to  

  remember.

  That's hard to remember because I think oftentimes, and I think a lot of other people probably feel this, that there's one right answer. Yeah. And I think oftentimes God is more like, Hey, you have. Free will and I have created you with free will and choice. And I want you to choose me, but I also want you to like, to use the power of free will, which I've given you, and to choose what is good and what you also desire.

  And I, and I want that to align also with what I desire. And I think the fear is I have two doors that are open and it feels like God's opened both of them. But I still could choose the wrong one and then like God would be disappointed in me, life would be terrible if I choose like the wrong one.

  And I'm always fearful of will I choose correctly? 

  I you're right that's a pretty common, way of seeing this topic. Sometimes I tell people, if it's someone whose heart seems to be really in a great place, I will tell them, you're not gonna miss it. I don't think God is up there with these two doors and better pick the right one, or you're gonna get on my bad list.

  I don't think he does that. I think that's a false construct. He's a kind father and he wants to give us good things. Yeah. And he will in this area as well. It's a big area, big topic like relationships and going overseas, but I don't think we're gonna miss it. Hmm. 

  Okay. A few things are coming to mind and a lot of fears I think are coming to mind for me. One is the fear of making a decision too quickly because of the pressure of trying to move abroad, which is kind of what I mentioned with this girl I was dating last year, that the decision we came to was we get married and move abroad and I was really struggling with the sense of is this a good motivator to expedite the decision of getting married or does this relationship and decision need more time to be made? 'Cause I could see a lot of people, maybe you guys, I, I'm curious, have you guys seen people make a decision to get married or to save the relationship and then go abroad and move together or.

  I

  don't know. Have you guys seen that story play out

  before?  '

  I have seen that before. But I think that's a temptation of a lot of people is, to rush so that you can kind of make both things possible. 

  Yeah.

  Right. Because that's like ideal. I don't have to choose, I just get both best of both worlds.  

  Right? Yes.

  I

  would

  caution,

  however Okay.

  that

  what are the negative consequences of waiting to make a decision and thinking through? All those potential consequences. Yeah. And evaluating whether they're worth actually rushing into that decision, because I think in most cases, time as Mark said, is actually helpful.

  And that applies to relationships too. And it also could apply to the decision making process of choosing to serve overseas. 

  But Carly, I'm getting older, like 

  the

  clock is  

  ticking. Like, isn't that true? 

  To some extent, sure. But, um, if you look at the big picture of things and the big picture of your life,

  um, keep in perspective.

  It is hard to keep in perspective, but. The amount of time that we're talking about here is minimal as you look at the whole scope of your life. And if you made a potentially, serious decision that would have real consequences too soon, that can be, much more detrimental than waiting another year to make that decision.

  And maybe you'd land in that same place, but maybe you wouldn't and you would've had that extra time to sew into your relationship too, and to get to know each other better and to evaluate more if you're compatible long term, and if this is truly God's plan for you and for that person. So I think actually time is on your side here.

  And rushing into a decision is strongly advised against in. 

  you know, Michael,

  you said I'm getting old. Okay. Yeah. To the degree that, that's like a legitimate perspective of yours right now, what emotions are going on within you regarding that? 

  Yeah. I would say really bluntly how I feel right now is. I am 25 and like the feeling very specifically I have is my brother's married and he and his wife want to have kids

  soon. Yeah. And I

  want to have my kids grow up with his kids 'cause we're identical twins and it'd be so fun.

  But I am not married and I want to go spend a year abroad and then come back and thinking through everything.

  I'm like, all right, I at least gotta date somebody for a year. And then we at least gotta be married for two years probably before we pop out any kids. And this timeline's looking like I'm not gonna have kids until I'm like 30, 32 maybe. And that's if the timeline works out perfectly. And so it feels like right now I could go on a date with this girl, I'm met at the coffee shop Monday and like start that relationship and explore it.

  Or I can go abroad, spend a year abroad. Growing and experiencing different cultures and experiencing God in new ways and then coming back and like looking for somebody, but also like, I guess I could meet somebody while I'm there. Exactly. There's nothing against that. But it just feels like that is, much less plausible to happen.

  But I also just genuinely don't know, like I am, I don't know. What does living in Spain look like? What does dating in Spain look like? I have zero idea. I don't even know Spanish now. How would I talk to the person? 

  Yeah. Boy, that's a lot there, when you moved from Lincoln, which where you're from, I think. Up to Elgin, Illinois a few years  

  Yeah.  

  Did you think that Oh, man. To go to Elgin? There might not. I might miss out on people who are in Lincoln. That could be part of my future. 

  Yeah. I didn't think that because Lincoln's this tiny rural town and I'm like, Elgin's got way better possibilities 

  Yeah. But I'm thinking like, like if someone, I was thinking of this earlier, 

  but that is a good question. If 

  Someone chooses to go to a college in Indiana. Alright. They choose therefore not to go to a college in anywhere else, like in California.

  Okay. So that means this pool of potential future partners, it doesn't exist for them. The word decision comes from it's either Greek or Latin word means to cut off any other possibilities. So you go here and that kind of becomes your pool of potential partners, at least for a while. And the mission's question is a bigger, on a larger scale, right?

  You're going to a different culture, different country. But the thing is, we don't go or stay. We don't know who God, what God's up to. Absolutely. We don't know who those potential people are. For us. We have no idea. And so that's where trust has to play a  

  role. Gotta have faith 

  And surrendering your control of your own timeline, of the expectations of your timeline in your head.

  I mean, when I was formerly engaged at like age 25 and I thought, okay, here's a vision for my future, a specific timeline for my future that I could see play out. That was kind of in line with my expectations. Then when I chose to break off that engagement, that was a full surrender of the future. Yeah.

  Because it was like, what if this never happens again? What if I, what if it takes me 10 years to find someone? What if I, just said goodbye to my only potential for 

  Yeah. And that's the fear is I will never find love again.

  fear.  

  That is the fear Many people have. But I think that is what we are called to surrender, whether or not we're serving vocationally, overseas or whether we're staying here.

  We as followers of Jesus are handing over that timeline, those expectations for our own life to where God would lead us. 

  Yeah, it's, if I haven't found the person, the right person for me yet, if I go overseas another country, will I miss my right person? 

  Oh yeah. I felt that. 

  Yeah.

  You could ask the question, the flip of that, will staying prevent me from meeting my future spouse? Oh, interesting. Because they're both legit.  

  But that is definitely a feeling of I think maybe Elgin has the right person for me.

  There's a lot of people here that are similar to me and like, like-minded and I don't know what people are like abroad, wherever I'd move and so will I be able to find somebody like-minded, if the only Americans are the ones that are my team and my team's only 10 people, that's a small pool to choose from. 

  Is that, are you limiting yourself to  

  Maybe

  I am, I don't know, but like also the idea of dating somebody else that grew up in a whole different culture and knows is. Other language that I don't know how to speak yet, but we'll learn is really intimidating

  in 

  is intimidating. 

  Okay. Okay.  

  and and then what do you do?

  Do I just choose to live the rest of my life there with them? Do, then they move to the US and I mean, those are all questions you'd have to wrestle through while dating.  

  and

  those are questions that a number of our workers overseas are asking really?

  Because they meet someone overseas and love happens and, and then those questions become front and center.  

  Yeah. 

  I think on the front end this is a common question, will going will fulfilling this commitment, this calling in my life, mean sacrificing my dream of getting married. Will it mean giving up that dream forever of having a family?

  And I think you have to come to a point where you are okay with it going either direction because God will bring you to the place that he wants you and use you in the ways that He wants you and bring the right community around you and bring the right people in your life if you are walking in obedience to him.

  And if you are living in communion with him. And  

  so

  whether you go or stay, 

  whether you go or stay, right? Like you could end up single here too, even if you want to be married and want to have a family. And also trusting that he knows your desires, that he wants good things for you, and that if he brings you the right person, that will happen here or there too. And so I think like being comfortable or being willing to live in that space, live in that uncertainty and still take those steps forward. Is the right mindset to be in. And then what we often see is people are surprised with who God brings to their path.  

  Yeah.  

  happens  

  whether that's, whether that's a national, in the country where they're serving, whether that's, an American either with one collective or, you know, in some other capacity living overseas, or whether that's somebody they meet online, even like here in the States, and then have to determine where, what their futures will look like together.

  It doesn't mean closing the door to love altogether. And we've seen that time and time again that when people leave for the field single, that does definitely not mean that they're gonna remain single on the field. I 

  I

  think I, like me and maybe everyone else, and my position just needs to keep remembering that yeah, moving abroad does not mean you will be single, it actually really does not change hardly  

  It's almost irrelevant.  

  Wow. You, You,

  would say it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I will keep saying those words. Mark says it's irrelevant. You'll meet somebody  

  I, I, I mean, I mean there are different factors of course, but I don't think it directly affects whether you will find a long-term loving  

  relationship.

  Yeah, that makes sense. 

  And several of our leaders around the world have actually become relationship experts, um, by seeing, many of their teammates navigate this process for themselves and provide counsel and coaching and walking with them, supporting them through this process. Whether that means they're like.

  in a long distance relationship or they're navigating the challenges of that, or whether they meet someone on the field and they're discerning what could be the future here. Whether they're just, struggling with singleness and loneliness. That's something that a lot of our field leaders have come to.

  Yeah. Kind of embody like as a mentor role in, in many of our workers' lives. Just observing those relational, 

  Is there a team that has the highest marriage, like success rate or dating success

  rate  

  You want us to name teams?  

  Maybe

  not. No. 

  Some 

  is funny though. That is it makes sense.

  Yeah, because a lot of, like the best season of life to move abroad and have this experience is like right. When you're graduating school and you don't have a career, you don't have a family. You're not 

  the least amount of  

  And that's what I feel right now. I'm like, this is the best time of my life to, to try and do this and get this experience. 

  Absolutely.

  And when I talk to college students in classrooms, I will make this very point that this is the optimal time in five years from now. I say this, five years from now or eight years from now, you will look back on this time and you'll say, boy, I was so free then. Yeah. And yet, and so it makes it an optimal time Yeah.

  To go. 

  Yeah. So the theme I'm hearing over and over again is surrender. And trust God with your future. Whether that is you stay or you go

  and

  have patience.

  I feel like those are the two things I keep hearing you guys say, which are really hard things to do. I feel like I have things that call me out on both of those. Often, and I'm like, man, I've not surrendered this thing. Or I've retaken control of these decisions in my life all the time. And I feel like it's always a process of re,

  re, surrendering things to God.

  And that's

  really hard,

  but it is necessary. 

  Yeah. I would just say to that, Michael, that your tendency to like take things back, God doesn't look at you and judge you for that.

  You're fine. You can relax and you're fine with that.

  Just continue to listen love and his words to you and continue moving forward in your process. He doesn't condemn us. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't shame us. He's kind. Yeah. He's kind to you no matter what.  

  I just think of like prodigal son coming home. And hopefully you're not to the extreme of the prodigal son, but like, it kind of is that way.

  Like God is always delighted when you come back to him with, at whatever

  level it

  is. Okay. So, as I'm considering moving abroad, I would look at different organizations and I've found that organizations have very different beliefs on dating.

  And some are even saying you are not allowed to date if you commit to going abroad for say, a year because they say that's a distraction, which I would agree with, but might also be frustrated about. So what's one collective's perspective or take on that, and how do they navigate that in a healthy way?

  Because I think there are some like, healthy boundaries with that. 

  Yeah, I think that's a great question to be asking. One collective has chosen not to have an official policy on dating because it is such an individual question that you have to wrestle with yourself and you have to think through what's right for your situation and how the Lord is speaking to you and working in your life.

  So we don't have a policy that outlines like what's allowed and what's not allowed. However, I think it's really important to have open communication with your supervisor, which in many cases is your team leader here, with one collective about, your vision for the future, your desires, your current relationship status, challenges in your relationship.

  Because this isn't just a job, it is a life that you're gonna be living in community with people who you're serving alongside, and you should be willing to share. All aspects of your life together. And so often our leaders can offer really good wisdom or other team members who have gone through this maybe are, who are a few steps ahead.

  They can offer really good wisdom to consider and just be like a supportive ear. Somebody who can, sit with you and walk with you on this road. And in some cases our teams do have guidelines, different teams with different guidelines about how focused on language learning and culture adaptation and adjustment you need to be for the first six months or so.

  And dating might be discouraged during that period,

  or  

  be a huge  

  it could be  

  distraction. From like important things to actually  

  Yeah. And so having that open line of communication, just from the beginning, from even the application process, I think is really helpful in understanding what's gonna work best in that particular country, where you're looking at service and with the team dynamics that are at play there.

  And then also, knowing that your team leaders and the people who are around you and in community with you, want the best for you. They don't wanna limit you. They're not trying to prohibit you from finding love. They really want what's best for you. And so they're supporting you in this whole journey, and they're just trying to, provide the best outcomes for you. 

  Yeah. I would add that, just in general, this is one collective general. We have really. Kind, policies across the board that, most of our, I think almost all of our people find to be very helpful and not constricting and life giving, and this is an example of that.

   Yeah, I agree. I think it's freeing. 

  It's freeing. I'll just add too, Carly to what you said. You already said this, but like in mobilization, our job as the, as the gateway, we're the first people to talk with new people exploring us. Yeah. It is really our, initially our responsibility to get to know people as well as we can, including their relationship.

  dynamics.  

  Okay, What are some other questions? I or somebody in my position should be asking as it relates to relationships and serving a abroad? 

  The only one I would add is, of course you're single Michael, so you're not asking a question as a married man, but a married couple when they apply to us, and are accepted, we want, we look for them to be married for about a year, is the general policy before we would want them to deploy.

  I see. Exactly. And so there is that, that, that is kind of a, a timeframe that is, I think in our policy or manual somewhere. It is, but it's also not a rigid one. Every case we look at individually, we've made. E exceptions probably going one direction or the other on that. And again, the purpose is we care about people and want the best for them and for our teams.

  And so that's a policy we have for married couples. Okay,  

  So if you're engaged or married, then you'd be looking at possibly extending, you know, your onboarding, to like make sure that you're in the healthiest space possible and that you've had time to live together and like, you know, interact with each other on, on a familiar territory before moving

  to

  Unfamiliar.  

  I see. Yeah, that makes

  This has been super helpful guys, and as I continue my journey, I will continue to ask you guys 'cause I have access to you and you guys have so much wisdom and experience in this space, and so I really value your guys' input on

  this

  and I think a lot of other people will too.

  And so, um, I just wanna like summarize like the highlight of this, which I think is when you're looking at serving abroad and you feel that tension of, do I, the tension between dating and the desire to serve abroad. The answer to that would you say is surrender your desire to God and surrender this decision to God and be patient, would you say like that's, that's the key takeaway? 

  Yeah, I think that's, that's, on the right track for sure. And I think, another thing like truth that you can rest in is that, the choices that you make, the path that you follow will be a part of the road, the journey that leads you to your potential spouse and to God's will for your life, and choosing to do one thing or another will not keep you from love, and it will not necessarily lead you to love. It's all just a part of God's will and how that's manifesting in your life. 

  I'll just add the phrase, put your

  yes on the table to whatever God leads you to do.

   I will continue

  to do that

  to the best of my ability.

  Well thank you guys for listening to this episode of The Last and Change podcast in this miniseries we're gonna be tackling some more hard questions that likely a lot of people thinking about serving abroad are probably asking. And so, um, be looking for the next one coming up in a couple weeks.

  And, if you want resources, there's resources and episode description. And if you're looking at serving, feel free to sign up for a time to talk with Carly or Mark they would love to walk you through this process.

Trailer: Torn Between

Trailer | 2 Minutes | Sept 1, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving abroad.

You feel called to cross-cultural work, and you are actually considering committing to it. But alongside that calling is a wave of uncertainty:

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

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How will I make money? What do I do about my relationship? How is my family going to respond to this?

What if I don’t feel ready? What if I never feel ready?

Torn Between is a mini-series created for people who want to move abroad for cross-cultural work but feel stuck in the tension of fear, uncertainty, and desire.

This isn’t a podcast full of answers. It’s a space to name the doubts and fears you’ve been carrying and realize you’re not the only one. Because the path to serving isn’t always clear—and that’s not a disqualifier. It’s a starting point.

Hosted by Mark and Carley who help others take the leap abroad—and Michael who’s standing on the edge himself. These are honest, personal conversations with no easy answers-just good questions and a few next steps forward.

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• About the Host

  Michael is a storyteller, creative, and missions advocate who brings honesty and vulnerability to every conversation. As someone navigating his own calling and relationship questions, he represents the heart of the Torn Between audience—asking the questions many are afraid to voice out loud.

  Mark has spent years walking with people discerning cross-cultural work. With a calming presence and deep well of experience, he offers wisdom, perspective, and a gentle challenge to trust God through uncertainty and transition.

  Carly brings warmth, insight, and lived experience to the table. Having served overseas herself and now guiding others on their journey, she speaks with compassion about the real tensions people face and helps ground big decisions in trust and grace.

• Trailer Transcript

  Okay, you’re graduating or maybe you already did. And now you’re staying down a question that’s way bigger than you’re integrating, which is What the heck am I actually supposed to do with my life? It’s a fun place to be in, but all the opportunities can feel super overwhelming. At least If you’re somebody that feels this, but one of the things you’re pulled towards is cross-cultural work. Living abroad doing something good then we made a podcast for you. Torn Between is a podcast by one collective for anyone that wants to do cross-school work abroad, but feels stuck in the tension of fear, uncertainty, and desire. This podcast is hosted by Mark and Carly. Here’s Carly. Carly, say hello. Hey Carly, and then also hosted by Mark. This is our other podcast host, Mark. Say hello. They are super wise people. Their full-time job is related just to help people move abroad and overcome fears and doubts that are holding their lives. And lastly, I will be the other host. But not as a guide, but instead as somebody that is considering what it’s like to move abroad for cross-cultural work. These are raw and personal conversations. There are no answers in this podcast, but a lot of good questions, good conversation, and maybe a few steps forward that you can relate with. So if you’re stuck in the feeling of how do I actually commit to moving abroad for cross-cultural work, this podcast is for you and I hope you enjoy us as we explore a bunch of the different fears and big questions that keep people from following their calling.