EP 4: Torn Between a “Real Job” and Ministry

Episode 4 | 38 Minutes | Oct 21, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You want to serve cross-culturally—but you also want to keep building your skills, experience, and resume. Is overseas work a career pause, or can it actually push your career forward?

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode, we dive into the ‘Ministry is only a Bible study’ myth and look at real roles—from communications to public health to entrepreneurship. If you’ve wondered what you’d actually do overseas (and how it translates back home), this episode is for you.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• Why cross-cultural work isn’t about losing your career—it’s about redirecting it.

• How your professional skills (from business to media to public health) can make a tangible impact.

• The myths that keep people from going—and what actually happens on the field day-to-day.

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

  Hey - guys, welcome back.

  Thanks for joining in episode four of the Torn Between Podcast.

  Today we’re talking about what the heck you would actually do as a missionary.

  Right. Yes. That’s it.

  That’s the blunt way to put it.

  But we’re gonna dive into what it actually means to build a resume —

  What does it look like to have a clear job role,

  how you can like actually develop your professional skills

  doing cross-cultural work and service work.

  So, hopefully we can get over some of the misconceptions.

  Yes.

  What — what a missionary does.

  Which I think part of it is, a lot of ‘em are actually kind of true,

  but at One Collective, they’re quite different. 📍

  Yeah. Alright.

  This is — we’ll start with the — I’m torn between…

  Yeah.

  Yeah. Something where I am now.

  And then the idea of cross-cultural service work.

  That has been a theme in this series.

  Michael’s been torn between which —

  which is genuinely true.

  Am I playing it up a little bit? Yeah.

  But also it is true.

  And I have been genuinely learning so much from you guys.

  I appreciate that.

  So this series has been fun.

  That’s awesome.

  So here’s the problem that I need your guys’ help with.

  I — as I’ve been talking about — considering Spain, right?

  But also I have this job where I literally make these podcasts for One Collective,

  you know, among the many other things that I do.

  And so the thing that is holding me up from the idea of moving abroad is:

  I have a pretty clear job role here.

  I have clear income.

  I have clear skills that I’m developing at One Collective,

  and I feel pretty good about them.

  Learning CRMs, about management leadership. All these things. In my conversations and thoughts about moving to Spain and doing cross-cultural service work, is that I would go there and I would just run a Bible study or just live with people and be like, oh, how are you today?

  Can I evangelize to you? And,

  then like our

  you know, prince, uh, well I hope that's, matching shirts that also like

  Athea

  Athea or the Pilgrim house. Like, come join us and meet the love of tv, which is all great and good, but I'm playing some of the misconceptions. Sure.

  But,

  I actually, my fear though is I would move here and I wouldn't have a real job.

  Mm-hmm. It

  be a real job. I wouldn't be developing my professional self anymore. And then that would hinder me future if I ever wanted to move back or any, into any other professional field. And, we've talked about this a little bit. I know it's not true, but that still is my fear, right? So how do I get over that fear and

  what is

  what is

  the truth about cross-cultural service work?

  Where does that fear come from? Because I'm trying to, I know our teams that work around the world. I know many of our people, a couple hundred people who work around the world with us, they are using their skills.

  I'm just curious, where does your fear about that come from? Yeah, I think it comes from the idea that in America I have a pretty good job and I'm a videographer, which has some almost prestige to it sometimes. Like, yeah, I get to travel, I get to make videos pretty cool, I guess. And my fear is that I would move here and my understanding is as a missionary, you just sit down and chat with people.

  People,

  Or so you'd give up all that you've worked for. I would give up all that I worked for and would then just become a service oriented person. Which is not bad at all. Like people need other people to sit down with their mental love and spend time with them. And we do that in a lot of places in collective, but loving and serving are things that you're less drawn to than photography.

  Just to throw it out there.

  out there. Yeah. I'm

  Not about loving people. No, no. I feel like I have hard skills that I really value and spend time developing and I feel like I would not have the opportunity to use those, even though I think those would be a way I can bless and serve people there. Yeah. And I'm learning and I think trying to learn

  like

  what would, would look like to use those skills cross culturally.

  Well, I think this would be a good time to discuss a few of those myths or misconceptions, that come up and inform your thinking and contribute to those fears that you're having. Let's brainstorm. What are some common myths that people might have when, anticipating starting this process and what could keep them from moving forward?

  And what is the actual truth? What's the reality like both with one collective and maybe just in general?

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So misconception number one, like I just go abroad and I run a Bible study or like an after school program, and I just sit around and like host people or something.

  And this might be a deep rabbit trail. So are you guys okay if we really dive in and tear apart the idea of missions work a little bit? The title? Yeah.

  Sure. Okay. Every time I've heard a missionary, talk to my church or talk, be like at church camp, they're like, the message oftentimes is there's this number of unreached people in this country or whatever, and they

  need

  you to

  To alize to them. to them.

  But also you take it a step further, missionaries I feel like are

  What I see feel about them is they ask for people's money and then they go and they just hang out in this other country.

  And I'm like, what are you actually doing though? And it doesn't feel like it's necessarily an effective

  use

  of funds.

  And this is coming from you, which is like a more. Like entrepreneurship, business minded person. Yeah. Because I see I'm a little skeptical. Yeah. Very skeptical. Maybe even like where, when I was growing up I was like, oh, I'm all about this. And then I was like, alright, no, let's nuance this a lot more now.

  And sometimes I feel like missionaries are a waste of money.

  Mm-hmm.

  I'm gonna take your side on this question a little bit because it sounds like some of your perceptions are coming from actual data points that you have seen Yeah. And observed and heard. And so you naturally would be in this place today where you're skeptical Yeah.

  Somewhat, right? Yeah, absolutely.

  Yeah.

  think also historically, as you've seen it presented to you. It may be just a little tiny fraction of the reality of what's actually happening, but the way it's communicated might not have been effective. Mm-hmm. And really rallying up interest and attracting people to the work because not communicating, things that would actually speak to future missionaries or future goers that would resonate with them and get them to want to join.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. So I think a communication piece and communicating ineffectively actually informs your misconception too Yeah.

  percent Yeah.

  So years ago I studied accounting and my favorite course was Accounting 1 0 1, which is like the first. Freshman year. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. But then as the years went on through my major, I didn't like it, but I ended up with an accounting degree, became a CPA and I and my wife and two kids, we went to what used to be Zaire, it's the Democratic Republic of Congo now.

  And I was a treasurer at a medical center

  In Northeastern Zaire.

  Okay.

  So I was using a skill that I had learned, disliked, but I had learned, and I was using it for a very specific needed, role at this medical center that had over 100 beds. It was a significant place. Wow.

  Wow.

  That's what I did.

  And I think that, there are numerous examples of people who use their hard skills in mission type work. And service around the world. Yeah. That's just one. Yeah. Would you say this is true about one collective that, we have a lot of open positions on different teams. Would you say those positions are kind of representative of an actual job posting, like requirements, responsibilities and like expectations?

  Yes. I would say that, and that's how we encourage our leaders around the world to think of their open opportunities. So the first step for them is evaluating in the community where there might be a need that isn't currently being met. A need that, is strategic for their vision for where this.

  Community should be going.

  And that yeah, isn't present in the community right now. And that's how one collective can have a deeper impact and get further involved in the ministry there. And so then the need translates to an opportunity of

  how

  we can promote this, and how we can attract people to this type of role.

  And then the opportunity, I think it shaped around the actual applicant that we're in conversation with, that we're talking about

  their

  unique set of skills, their experiences, their training, their interests and hobbies and passions.

  And

  take those open roles, those open opportunities, and we combine them with what we know about the applicant.

  And then we create a job description that fits both the needs on the field and. The skills and what the person can offer that's coming to one collective. Mm-hmm. I see. That is actually getting at one of my misconceptions, I think. Okay. Which for example, I graduated and I was thinking about going like long transitions

  and

  so I graduated and then we were chatting, mark, you were my mobilizer.

  This was a really conversation between us, but my expectation is somebody like me graduates, you're like, I want to do this thing. And then the, the organization is like, great, another body, where do we want to just throw it up? Instead of being like, no, we actually have a need for your

  specific characteristics

  and skills and let us strategically place you.

  I feel like my misconception is that isn't ever done any strategic element to it. Which is not true. I want collective. Do you feel like. You have a sense of pressure, that you have to make this decision and then stick with this decision for a certain period of time. 'cause I think that's another common myth that you're deciding that you're gonna do missions and that's the only then pathway forward.

  And there's no room for change. There's no room to pivot to something different, whether that's in the mission space or outside of the mission space.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. You can't change your mind. Once you've made that commitment. You're locked in and you're locked in. So life. Do you feel any pressure like that?

  Okay.

  Okay.

  I maybe not exactly that I'm locked into life, but what makes me fear that is the idea that I will join this missions, and then I will have this weird gap in my resume. And then after that, I'll become less 📍 📍 📍 idealOf a hire to an employer. Interesting. And so reintegrating back into the professional space, my expectation is it would be challenging.

  So

  So in your mind, the professional development stops when you go to the field.

  Which is not

  True.

  I think personal development would happen because you country. Sure. Country and everything. You're gonna learn so much. Yeah. Which is good, but also I'm like, I care about the professional development.

  Yeah. Which you guys are saying does happen. It does happen. It doesn't have to be a gap in your resume. It can actually be an asset in your resume. Okay. But you have

  international

  Tell me about how

  how

  Absolutely. Both cross-cultural work

  can

  an asset in my resume. You will be able to present to your prospective employers after returning back home that you have lived in another culture.

  You have perhaps learned a different language and spoken that language. You will have interacted with people who are outside of the conventional, demographic from where you're from or from your hometown, whatever.

  Yeah.

  It just gives you a depth and a breadth of, I realize these are all personal and not so much the professional side.

  Yeah. Encouraging my misperception.

  Oh wow.

  Okay. Because you're saying all you would have to speak to your new employer is personal developments. Again, I'm not hearing that there's professional development in the field. Well, yeah. Okay. So in addition to cultural intelligence, cultural awareness in a global economy, which is actually really important to know how. To connect with people

  from

  different backgrounds around the world. Yeah. It depends what you'd be doing on the field and if that would further your skills and your professional development.

  And so if you chose something and if an organization, like one Collective had an opportunity for you to actually use those hard skills and contribute to the work that a team is doing in a particular community, I think that, you could actually grow in your hard skills depending on Yeah. What it is that you're doing.

  So in this example, if you were a videographer, on the field, you might be the only videographer on that team. So you may or may not be mentored by somebody who's an employee of the organization, who's, been doing it for long. Than you, but you'd probably develop content that then would be used in multiple ways throughout the organization.

  It could be part of your portfolio going forward.

  Yeah.

  It could be something where you learn to see things through a different lens. Maybe you collaborate with other videographers from other organizations who are also sharpening their skills. Maybe you'd have a chance to present at conferences in different parts of the world.

  Maybe it would just open up new professional doors that you wouldn't even have here because of your location or because of, just the new opportunities you have there. Yeah. No, that's really helpful here, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive into

  a

  a case study different than the one you just gave me.

  Okay. But I wanna get really concrete about this. Yeah. So imagine I just graduated and I got

  a

  nutritionist degree, and I want to do cross-cultural work. Like,

  What

  would that look like for me to use that hard skill, on a day-to-day basis with one collective? Yeah. So if you were going to use that skill here in the us maybe you'd have, maybe you'd be affiliated with the practice or maybe you'd have a set of clients and maybe you're helping them with diet or lifestyle changes.

  And it's a pretty specific schedule that you maintain and you know what you expect and you know who you're working with. If you're gonna apply that in a community that's developing, that's under-resourced, that doesn't have the same access to healthcare that we do here,

  I think then that you're

  able

  apply that in a way that's really meaningful and life changing to people who may not understand how to.

  F properly feed their families. Maybe they don't understand what good nutrition can mean for disease prevention. Maybe they don't understand what maternal nutrition can look like to properly feed a pregnant woman, before they, give birth and nourish the baby. So I think nutrition education is something that is lacking in a lot of parts of the world.

  That with proper training and investing in people's growth and development and education, this can actually be a really life changing set of skills that you can apply in a very meaningful way.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. And in the locations where we work, Michael, our focus is always on people who are more on the margins.

  Okay.

  And so we're gonna be working with people who don't have. Access to the kinds of healthcare and clean water

  Yeah.

  healthy food sources and resources that a typical person in the US would have. So a nutritionist in another country working with people who are on the margins, that would be a real useful skill in that setting.

  Yeah.

  I'm just now remembering actually a story that's really related to this that I think one collector put out right before I joined sometime. And it was about in Ecuador, about them working with the that are on the margins that are

  Really in poverty there.

  'Cause malnutrition was a huge problem there. Mm-hmm. It's, and actually having somebody there to diagnose that and then recommend, I don't if they're giving food out something.

  That.

  I remember that being very specific.

  Hearing

  That from the collective.

  So, I mean, healthcare in general, healthcare education, whether that's practicing good hygiene, whether it's about vaccines or prevention of, chronic disease. I think that healthcare education is something that we take for granted here and

  maybe

  we grow up knowing, and our families have instilled some things in us, but in a lot of parts of the world,

  There's a huge lack of access

  to that.

  Yeah. And so people going in, in the medical field or in a nutrition area, they would be starting at a more elementary level than someone who's working as a nutritionist and a medical doctor or nurse here in the us. And, but it can be, therefore, I think even more transformational. Because it's being done at often at a more preventative level.

  Yeah. Than in response to issues and health problems that come up for people. Okay.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That's

  That's public health. Alright. Another myth that I'm just gonna join a team that has matching t-shirts.

  I'm just gonna walk around and evangelize. Okay. This is funny, but I think it also speaks to something true that people have a fear of, or just maybe an assumption of, not fear. An assumption is that you're gonna be doing everything in groups. Yeah. And you're gonna be doing everything together because that's people's experience on short term teams.

  Mm-hmm. When they're sent out by their church or their university. Is that, never be alone, never do anything alone. Everything you're gonna be doing is in a group of 10 and with matching T-shirts. Yeah. But in reality,

  Doing your own unique role on the field. You have a job and the rest of the team that you're serving with has their own jobs.

  In cooperation with other people in the community, maybe people from other organizations, maybe people who are expats, who are living there. A whole variety of people that are linking arms together with a common vision for transformation in the community. And so you're probably gonna be working alone for part of the time.

  You're probably gonna be working hand in hand with some team members. For a portion of the week. Given week, you're probably gonna be working with other people outside the team for another part of the week. It's really something that you have to reset your expectations for, that this is my job and I'm operating like this is a

  career

  and

  that I am

  An independent person and I'm capable of managing my own time.

  That's a skillset that we look for actually in people,

  and

  something learned and it's not something that people, necessarily are born with and a trait that everyone has. But, that is an expectation that is wrong. It's a myth that people have about missionary work.

  And in reality it looks a lot more like you're doing a job and you're living in community with people. Yeah. I have visited, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 of our teams around the world. Yeah. I have never seen, team t-shirts. I have never seen groups of 10 or 12 huddling together, working around, all working on the same project.

  Occasionally. It might be preparing a meal for guests or something. So you all team up to do that. Yeah. But

  the myth

  is so easily shot out of the water. Yeah. And so next myth.

  If I become missionary, I will pretty much be living in poverty. I won't be able to actually build wealth. I won't actually be able to have a decent income, because.

  I

  should just

  fundraise

  enough just to be able

  to live.

  and that this is a sacrifice. So you should live sacrificially.

  Exactly. Yeah, I understand how people come to that idea.

  I,

  think that, that people doing mission work, and I can only speak on behalf of my organization, one collective, I think people doing mission work there, there is a cap to their salary, but that cap is higher than what I think most people looking in might guess.

  And, that cap can be raised as well. Yes, it relates to fundraising, which provides the source of that salary and the increasing of a salary. But we don't. Do like poverty missions?

  Yeah.

  The budgets that we set for our people, they're also not luxurious. But they are generous. I use the word robust. We prepare our people well. And so their budgets include things like savings, retirement, vacation Yeah. And other things. And the worker has influence into what their salary is gonna be. Yeah. I love that.

  So that you as a worker can keep giving from your overflow to other important things that you care about, whether that's other workers, whether that's organizations, church based ministries, local church, but building that into your budget makes it intentional that you are actually preparing and planning to give in addition to receiving.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Clearly if you're looking to be a mega millionaire, going the route of

  foreign.

  mission service is probably not the path you wanna follow. That's evident. But in terms of poverty and having to scrimp and save, that's not the way that we follow. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for that.

  It doesn't make for healthy missionaries, I'll just say that. Yeah. If you're living in poverty, if you are worried about how your needs will be met, if that's consuming all of your energy, and it's creating anxiety, then you cannot do your work to your best potential. Yeah.

  Wanna mention the idea of internships because I think as people are in college, as people are, gaining experience and learning a new set of skills.

  They're wondering how they can use these on the field, maybe in ministry, and a really great way to try that out and 📍 📍 📍 a feel for what long term work could look like is through perhaps a summer internship.

  Maybe it's a whole semester, maybe it's looks like a gap year, but an internship type experience where you're joining a long-term team in a community of ours around the world as essentially a temporary teammate. So you're brought into the fold, you're joining all of the team meetings, and you're doing some strategic planning and you're contributing to long-term projects and you're doing it also to build your own skillset.

  Yeah. And to learn from others who have been there longer than you and will be there longer than you after you leave. And it's informing

  your

  future. Two. And so we offer many, many opportunities for people to come get a taste of what work looks like with us. And really make a meaningful contribution.

  We wouldn't offer the internship if it didn't play a part in the long term vision.

  Yeah.

  and so we want people to come experience what that's like with us. And then we, as mobilizers as serving coaches, we develop, even like a longer term relationship with those people where we're seeing them through that experience and then continuing our discussions with them and seeing where the rest of their, university, education takes 'em and where they might end up afterward.

  So I think that's a really great way to get

  Yeah. More

  a really practical example of that is I did an interview

  with one Collective

  right

  where you, like you, you even said this.

  like

  You were like, Hey, can you go to Bulgaria in South Africa,

  make

  some videos

  We want to tell the stories of those communities. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And then help us do that.

  And I was like, yeah. So I did that for a summer and I went and I filmed and worked for those teams and got to see the ministry, which is like what really hooked me into one collective. Beautiful. This is ministry done differently and I gotta tell those stories. I came away from it with an awesome portfolio

  piece

  And also you guys had like a really, I hope, like a valuable Yeah.

  Story

  Video to share and to use. Yeah. I think our communications director would say that we got that. Yeah. And then at some point, soon after that you were onboarded into the role you're currently in. Yeah. Full time. A full-time position. Yeah. And that wouldn't have happened Yeah.

  Without doing that internship.

  internship,

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  So I would encourage all young people to consider an internship if this is on your mind at all.

  Mm-hmm.

  Mm-hmm. For the future

  Yeah.

  and some, younger people, college students can use a summer experience to check a box for their college requirement. Right. I just spoke yesterday with a Taylor University student who spent six weeks in Masa, Tempe, Nicaragua

  Oh,

  Oh, yeah.

  teaching English in a local school.

  Part of what our team does there as a part of her tessel teaching English as a second language, requirement at Taylor University.

  awesome.

  That's awesome. Yeah. And she wants to go long term. Oh, that's awesome. In some capacity.

  Okay.

  Okay. This is funny. Two of my siblings have also been in this pipeline. Like my brother went to Ukraine for three months.

  Yes. And

  yes,

  that was a time that he used to develop his skill of becoming a software developer, while he also coworked. Wow. A hard skill. Yeah. He developed that. He taught himself that, but he did that 'cause he took himself, his job there anyway

  in a way

  was to cowork in the.

  and to co

  live

  with people there. Yes. And also challenge people to speak English.

  and

  Yes. And that

  then

  long term, he ended up working for one collection. As a software developer and my sister check that box. Teaching in Bulgaria for summer and now she's there long term. So we've really seen opportunity. So in the practice life, three internships ended up being long-term work with Collective.

  And I, heard there are younger siblings in the ranks. Right. Coming up,

  I'll connect you. You'll point them in this direction. There have been leaders on the field with one collective who have said to us in mobilization,

  Ask your people, what do you love to do? Identify that, come and do it here. Yeah. Now it doesn't play out exactly that way. That's like a blank check that you can't promise, or, but there's something to that, and that is if you have a skill or sometimes even a hobby, something that you are passionate about and you have some experience in doing that, sometimes our teams around the world will have an opening for exactly what you love to do.

  Yeah.

  We have places where, people use their artistic painting skills, for

  for example.

  to work with refugees. Yeah. We have, at least one team, maybe more than one, where young people who have musical, acumen abilities,

  Mm-hmm.

  they write songs and they come, go and sing and they lead worship. I do think that particularly with Gen Z, I just heard about this,

  from a

  partner organization of ours who over a period of time conducted a survey of a bunch of different generations and what their motivations for service were and also what kept them from moving forward.

  And they were able to compare the different generations and their top motivators. And it was really interesting to hear. And for boomers and Gen X, they found themselves a lot more motivated by a particular location in the world and maybe a calling to a people group, and for younger Gen Z applicants.

  That is not in even maybe the top five motivators. Interesting.

  right?

  Instead they're really entirely motivated by pursuing a skills-based

  position

  And

  that's what draws them to maybe a location they've never heard of. Mm-hmm. Maybe a location that they had no knowledge of in the past, and that God is now opening up that opportunity and speaking to them through the role that they were equipped for that then they pursue.

  Yeah. So I think it's really interesting revelation that the generations operate differently and we're seeing this kind of trend

  Yeah.

  with younger people, towards pursuing your area of expertise, pursuing your skills,

  and

  then that follows the people and the location where you'd be working yeah.

  Which has been

  absolutely true of me. For sure.

  Yeah.

  Because I want to use my skills, develop my skills, and the location people, I'm open I will say that fairly common for me is that people will.

  Maybe they come, they present with wanting to do something in a certain field, maybe communications or, and then

  Yeah,

  on the field. So we may have a role description, an opportunity on our website that describes something in the area of communications. But then in communicating with the field leader, sometimes that's where the communication needs to be consistent.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  Needs to flow with what the

  aspiring worker

  is interested in. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  That can be a challenge. And even then, once they get to the field, then you find out what their role is really like and is really involved with.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And I think communication all along that is really important because people on both sides.

  sides

  Make assumptions.

  Yeah.

  And

  think that they know what it entails. Mm-hmm. And what life will be like there. And the leader on the field thinks they know what the person is bringing to the team.

  Mm-hmm. And what their expectations are. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And if it's not talked about, then there's gonna be unmet expectations on both sides. So that's something we encourage in this process is please dive into your expectations with the leader as you're having these conversations, these interviews about your future in this place.

  Yeah. Because you will find that you do have expectations, even if you don't realize them yet. Yeah. They're subconscious. But as you bring them to the surface and you intentionally think about it and then discuss it, you're gonna have to come to a compromise and some sort of agreement on what is reality there.

  Yeah.

  And knowing that before you go is gonna save a lot of hurt. And even then. Yeah. After all of that really good work, you get to the field and you still, both sides will have to have a lot of flexibility because it's just not what you are gonna expect completely. Would you say it's true that you get to, in a way,

  make

  your role and like figure out what it looks like as you join the team

  and

  start to do work?

  I,

  yes.

  But

  I don't think it's, entirely up to you. I think it's in, in service of the goals of the team. Yeah. And,

  The leader sees as the right next step for this team.

  Yeah. So

  So it is a very fluid dynamic experience.

  and

  figure It is.

  it is.

  Is,

  There, there are general parameters to the role.

  If you're a communications person, you're not an agriculture person. Okay. You're a communications. Okay. You have some general Yeah. But then in ongoing communication, and then once you get to the field and you go, oh, I have never been to this location before. I don't. How do, where do I buy my food?

  So you're learning how to live all over again.

  Yeah.

  And you're starting a new job. Yeah. So you have to have, yes. It is fluid. It involves the personality of the person, it involves the leader and what their expectations are. Just a lot of communication. Yeah. Is so vital. Yeah. That's awesome.

  Cool.

  Which is true for any job, a marketplace job or working across cultural ministry or any relationship, like a romantic relationship or entering into marriage or absolute one guys all.

  Wow. Yeah.

  So cool.

  cool.

  Well

  thanks for walking me through this guys and let me Yap. And process this because like genuinely I'm here and this is what I hear a lot about.

  So hopefully you guys got some value out of that. And it's clear.

  and,

  Thanks for running in guys.

  thanks Michael.

  it.

  Thanks,

  wonderful being with 📍 you guys. Thank you guys.

  for listening to this episode of Torn Between, hopefully this has been helpful for you as you are trying to figure out what role you want to fill. And maybe cross-cultural work or in a marketplace job.

  And if you guys want to explore this more and see if there's a rollout win Collective that could fit you, talk to Mark or Carly.

  They would love to chat with you

  and

  help

  you figure out as they're helping me figure out what my role could be abroad.

  So

  📍 Gotcha.

EP 3: Torn Between Fundraising and Financial Security

Episode 3 | 56 Minutes | Oct 7, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You’ve considered cross-cultural work, but the idea of fundraising and relying on others for your income makes you hesitate.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode, we name the challenges: awkward asks, a “tapped” network, actually having enough to live well, and the tension between calling and financial security. We then get practical, talking about how support-raising works, when it’s treated as a partnership, how to map your network, how to get referrals to expand your network, and how to set a realistic, healthy budget that includes savings, retirement, debt repayment, and actual rest.

This is a down-to-earth look at the pros, cons, and first steps to help you decide if cross-cultural work is for you.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• Why fundraising isn’t just about money, but about partnership and trust.

• Practical steps to move past fear and tap into networks you didn’t know you had.

• How to build a sustainable budget that accounts for savings, retirement, healthcare, and rest.

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

   Hey guys, just wanted to quickly welcome you to episode one of the Torn Between Podcasts. It's a podcast where we dive into some of the biggest fears and questions that we've seen a lot of people struggle with when they are pursuing the idea of cross-cultural work and doing it abroad. So, uh, welcome to episode one.

  This episode is all about relationships. And so if you're somebody that. Is in a relationship or maybe would like to be, but you're a little fearful of how moving abroad and doing cross-cultural work and entering this type of work would affect that this episode's for you. And so we dive into a bunch of examples, a lot of fears, and um, a lot of really good questions.

  And Mark and Carly have a lot of wisdom about this. So, um, buckle up. Hope you enjoy this first episode of Torn Between.

   Hey everyone and welcome to this miniseries of the Last and Change

  podcast.

  Today we are gonna be talking about, a topic that. Maybe makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but everyone absolutely, everyone feels and thinks about, which is relationships and the tension between do I stay for a relationship or do I go abroad, which is what I also want to do.

  And what does, how does that impact my opportunity for relationships in the future?

  So today with me, I have my host, 

  Carly.

  Hello, 

  And Mark. 

  Hi, I'm Mark. 

  I have

  a

  few things and a few questions that I personally can bring in this space, which feels a little uncomfortable because I'm like, all right, time to talk about my love life with Mark and Carly.

  Yeah, I know. I love you guys. I feel very safe with you guys. Would you guys like to give any context, to this before we dive in?  

  just that this tension between dating and serving is something like Michael said that I think is pretty universal nowadays, especially as we're recruiting younger

  potential workers to work with one collective. They're always thinking forward.

  They're thinking about their future, they're thinking about their career, they're thinking about potential relationships, and they're evaluating the risk and reward,

  for making these decisions. And I think it's something that we talk through with many people on the front end. And then we also see a lot of relationships and love blossom on the field.

  So it's fun to see that side of it too, but it's a pretty common theme that we see. 

  Yeah. 

  Yeah. Yeah. I am talking with this, person right now who. I started to talk conversation with her about eight months ago. She had a dream that she was maybe supposed to go to a certain country overseas.

  And so I've had a number of conversations with her. She filled out an application, references things were looking good. And then a couple weeks ago she says, I met someone.  

  And she's not going abroad anymore. 

  She is wrestling with that question. 

  Okay. She feels the tension. 

  She feels the tension. Yes. She not good. It looks like she might be leaning toward No for now. Okay. But she's wrestling with this tension of love and, her sense of calling. 

  Yeah. I feel like that is the exact tension I was feeling like a year ago now almost.

  A year ago I was in a relationship with somebody. We were dating maybe six months at that point, but I ended up traveling to Santiago, Spain. Ended up meeting some really amazing people that work for one collective there and just bonded. We were just chatting, doing life, and I shared that it is one of my goals to move abroad at some point and not just move abroad anywhere, but move abroad to a place that I can learn the language through immersion.

  Because I really have this sense of like, I want to be able to meet people where they are. 'cause I feel like most. People in other cultures with other languages always learn English and they're always meeting me where I am, which I'm really grateful for. But I, I, at least with one language, I wanna be able to try and meet somebody else where they are.

  And Spanish is a great language to learn, especially even here in America. Just share some of this with Dusty and Jordy and then ended up coming back after vacation. And then Dusty reached out and he's like, Hey Michael, can we jump on a call? And I was like, sure, we'd love to just hang out. And we jumped on a call and he said, pretty much I wanted to get on a call with you just to show how serious I am about this.

  But you shared some of these desires that you have and I think that you're a really cool person and I really would love to do life with you, at least for a time. Would you want to move here to Santiago live life with me and work remotely? And he literally like laid out all of these things about how he could help me convince my boss and upper leadership to let me work remotely for a year and how it'd be beneficial.

  And he's like, totally here to help you, like figure out the visa and everything. Like he, he went through every barrier and I was like, wow, I feel so valued and wanted, and also you're doing this to help me achieve a goal that I want. And so it was just like above and beyond and it was really significant.

  But I was dating this girl and I really wrestled with, do I go abroad? And leave her. Or do I stay in this relationship, which is a genuine, like good opportunity that I had right then. And I wrestled with God for a long time with that and had conversations with her. And the conversations ended with we either get married and we move abroad together, which like first year married, moving in abroad does not sound like you're setting yourself up for success.

  Two, I was not ready to get 

  married. Yeah, that's a big 

  Yeah, yeah. Or three you move abroad and we break up. And that was it. That was where we, we landed after a lot of conversations that were really hard. And so I ended up landing in the space of, okay, I'm going to choose to continue to pursue this relationship to see where it goes.

  And, 'cause I wasn't ready to call quits on it, but I also was not ready to be like, let's get hitched. But now here I am a year later and out of that relationship, which is sad, now I'm reconsidering. Do I move abroad now? Is this the time? 

  I just want to pick up on a phrase you used you said you were really wrestling with God, I just wanna say this whole topic, we can have, specific points we cover and things we look at. But this really is a matter of discernment and a lot of discernment happens outside of here are the points to consider.

  And so I really appreciate your, you introducing the realm of discernment and even spirituality. Like it's an invisible thing. Yeah. Trying to figure out these things. God's will call it. 

  Let me ask you guys a question about that, how do you guys walk with applicants who have made this decision and like so many different applicants, how have you walked with them and helped them to discern what God's will is for them? 

  Yeah, that's a really big question to consider, and it's something that I think we're all perpetually doing in our own lives, right?

  Yeah. So we're just. A guide for people. We can't make that discernment decision for them in any way, shape or form. We are just supporting them really through this process as they're wrestling with these questions with God directly and with wise counsel in their lives and with maybe a person that they're in a relationship with or considering being in a relationship with, prior to going.

  But I think it's really important to remember what was the calling moment in your life? How did God reveal that to you? And has that changed in any way? Or is that a separate thing from this newfound exciting relationship possibility in your life? Because remembering. The calling I think is an important exercise for people to do.

  'cause it is easy to get cloudy in that when something else pops up, even when like another type of distraction comes during this process that can also cloud your vision for the future and keep you from remembering or stay in the course of your calling. So I think that's a really key conversation to have is just helping them reflect back on what was this initial calling, how did it manifest, what did it look like?

  And what is, my vision for the, my future in ministry. Whether that's going to be, vocational ministry or ministry outside of a vocation. 

  Yeah. I would, add a few things. Maybe a curve ball, so like calling, yes, but sometimes God adjusts his calling or I was talking with this one person who had this dream, same person I mentioned before, had this dream of going to a certain location and

  halfway through our process, we came to the realization that this dream would, did not represent her ultimate destination, but it was to get her moving forward on her path of exploring. Absolutely. So she ended up wanting to go somewhere else before she met someone. The other thing I would say about calling is, I'll just share a definition that Carly and I use a lot in mobilization, and that is that calling is essentially stewarding your next steps in life, relationships, and career. That is so helpful because calling doesn't have to be this big. Oh, God's called me to reach the poor in a certain city in Ethiopia. Maybe God is simply calling me now in my life to take the next step with this person that I'm, I have a friendship with, whatever.

  And you don't have to figure it all out. You simply have to discern, listen different ways for what is that next step I'm  

  Yeah.  

  If they're in a spot where they have a potential relationship on the horizon or they've entered a relationship and now they're at this crossroads of making a decision of whether to stay in a relationship or whether to move forward with, you know, their initial commitment or their initial desire to serve overseas, we also have to look at or help them.

  Explore,

  what

  is this person that's now in their life? What is their vision for their future? And are those two aligned? Or are they in conflict in some way? And are the feelings around this person overpowering? Or, just have a bigger presence in their life in this decision making than, and looking at.

  Their futures together and whether those will compliment each other, whether that's in ministry or any other thing, like whether it's like where in the world do you wanna live, whether it's, if you wanna have kids, like all those things are obviously super important discussions to have in a relationship.

  And thinking about your vision for your future might have to come earlier in a relationship's timeline when it involves somebody who is considering serving overseas. Because that changes the dynamic of the relationship so much, that they might have to have those discussions at an earlier point, than maybe they would naturally. 

  Maybe not like first date type thing, but  

  maybe though, 

  third, like, hey, just a heads up thinking to move abroad. 

  Yeah. 

  as we're developing this relationship. That's a, I get Yeah, that's a big deal.

  Definitely. So Carla, you mentioned, like looking back at the original space where like you were called. And so I'm just curious can you guys like walk me through that? Like I am in this process and I could think of ideas and spaces where like my original calling was, but I dunno, it was missions night at a church camp maybe?

  Or was it while I was studying at university? I don't know. So I'm curious, like, use me as a case study. How would you guys walk somebody through

   So you have had an experience of some kind with God where you are sensing a call to serve? 

  Yeah, it's super general though. Like I feel like I've been called to love people well wherever I 

  Mm. 

  And I think I'm been really uniquely equipped. And so like there's specific spaces that I just can do that better because of my experience I've had. But I also don't wanna be like limited to only trying to serve in the ways that I feel comfortable or

  capable. of

  doing it.

  'cause I

  know God can use us in really unique ways that we're not

  expecting.  

  What's happening within me right now is I am just automatically putting my, not putting myself, I'm in this conversation with Michael Proctor.

  Yeah. And I am now seeking to like, invite you into to walk with one collective and work with us. Yeah. So what I would do is I have just a series of questions that I ask, and we don't have to make this an official interview, right now, but it's like I would ask you things like, um. What are your skills? 

  Yeah.

  Which I know when I first came to one collective, that was one of the first questions you asked me.

  And I said, videography. And at the time I literally was like, barely, I barely knew what I was doing. And 

  knew. I think I remember 

  and you were like, great, you wanna go to Bulgaria, Albanian, South Africa And 19-year-old

  me was like, heck yeah.

  It

  was a developing skill.

  Yeah.

  And luckily, like that trip was postponed a couple times, thank God, because my skills developed a

  lot

  during the times.

  It was

  Well. But yeah, that was a really helpful  

  question.

  Maybe

  partly the way I'm, I'm what I want say here is that for someone exploring like it's, we ask a series of questions to really get to know them as well as we can, and then see if there is a pathway that makes sense for them to work maybe with one of our locations around the world doing something that you are really passionate about.

  I see. And then we would ask are you drawn to any parts of the world? Yeah. Are you drawn to work with any certain demographics? But it takes time. Yeah. There's no one interview that brings us to an answer. Yeah. It takes time reflecting prayer, but that has to happen over time. 

  Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I know we chatted off and on I think it was like three years before I ended up going 

  abroad. Really? Okay. I think so. Yeah. Partly COVID was in the mix. I  

  that definitely delayed. it like 

  I tell a lot of people that time is a great clarifier.

   As it is with relationships as well. And I think, I mean, you're sensing a pull at this. Point in your life or even a year ago in your life to have a new experience to serve and use your skills in a new context and a new capacity. And I think like you don't wanna ignore that pole, that sense that God might be opening a door for you somewhere and asking you to walk through.

  And so then you have to weigh what are your other values in your life? What are things

  that

  might be really good that might be enriching to your life, but. That, may limit you, from being able to have the fullest experience here and relationships may or may not be a part of that equation.

  And like last year when you evaluated this, it was a really big part of this equation to the point where you made the decision to wait knowing too that this invitation might, remain open. Where like this relationship needed your current attention and the invitation to serve or to move or to have this new experience, could be on the table later.

  That you might be able to take that up at a different point. And so I think like looking at, the timing of these things is also really important as you're evaluating. This potential relationship or current relationship and the opportunity to serve.  

  It's kind of an all encompassing process.

  It's not something that we're essentially just trying to figure out. There is that part of it. We want to use our conscious mind to figure things out. But Gabor mate, my favorite. Canadian physician says that our conscious minds are only 6% of our evaluative faculties. the rest of it is all internal.

  It's subconscious. Trying to figure things out with absolute certainty and clarity often isn't possible. And I will sometimes share with people, a quote by Mother Theresa where, this ethicist, I forget his name, asked her on a visit to Calcutta, will you please pray for me? She said, how would you like me to pray for you?

  Pray that I have certainty about a matter. And she laughed and she said, he said, she said, that's the last thing I'm gonna pray about for you. And he said, you always seem like so confident and certain. And she said, no, I don't have certainty. I have trust. And so very often, many of our people will get to a place where maybe they're 80% certain about the way forward, or 65 or 91, but there has to come a step where you're a place where you're gonna step into the unknown with a level of trust in the God that you are in relationship  

  yeah, like how do we get to that place? Because I'm reflecting and thinking about, I was at times 50, 50 at times 20, 80, and I felt like I was just fluctuating so much. What percentage do I hit before I make that choice? And

  then

  how spell formula 

  is,  

  I wanna formula  

  I know sometimes  

  our

  actions actually proceed like our feelings. In this area, we have to take an action and place our trust in the Lord by taking a step forward and knowing that maybe our feelings will follow. so it's not always that it's leading with oh, I feel like I

  can

  and then I'll make that decision and then I'll take that action.

  So I think it's about sensing and discerning where he's calling you to be obedient in like just one step. Yeah. And having faith in the future. And having faith that like, is God really a good father? Who wants the best thing for you in your life and wants to give you good gifts and not just teach you hard lessons.

  That was a thing I had to learn through relationships, through experiences that I had, that he wasn't just putting relationships in my life to like teach me hard lessons and help me like sharpen, myself and become holier really. He wanted to give me good gifts to bless me, and that also involves saying no to a relationship.

  It involves saying no to some other things that. I, was questioning the value of, and was questioning whether these were from God. But when I really saw him as a good father who wanted what's absolutely best for me and wanted to bless me, then I think it, things became clearer, in my life.

  And I was able to move forward and trust knowing that good things were ahead. Not that I had said no to something. So then that was my one and only chance. But that good things were truly ahead and, and that played out, in my life and good things were ahead. So

  I think, that trust

  in father and your good

  father thing to  

  remember.

  That's hard to remember because I think oftentimes, and I think a lot of other people probably feel this, that there's one right answer. Yeah. And I think oftentimes God is more like, Hey, you have. Free will and I have created you with free will and choice. And I want you to choose me, but I also want you to like, to use the power of free will, which I've given you, and to choose what is good and what you also desire.

  And I, and I want that to align also with what I desire. And I think the fear is I have two doors that are open and it feels like God's opened both of them. But I still could choose the wrong one and then like God would be disappointed in me, life would be terrible if I choose like the wrong one.

  And I'm always fearful of will I choose correctly? 

  I you're right that's a pretty common, way of seeing this topic. Sometimes I tell people, if it's someone whose heart seems to be really in a great place, I will tell them, you're not gonna miss it. I don't think God is up there with these two doors and better pick the right one, or you're gonna get on my bad list.

  I don't think he does that. I think that's a false construct. He's a kind father and he wants to give us good things. Yeah. And he will in this area as well. It's a big area, big topic like relationships and going overseas, but I don't think we're gonna miss it. Hmm. 

  Okay. A few things are coming to mind and a lot of fears I think are coming to mind for me. One is the fear of making a decision too quickly because of the pressure of trying to move abroad, which is kind of what I mentioned with this girl I was dating last year, that the decision we came to was we get married and move abroad and I was really struggling with the sense of is this a good motivator to expedite the decision of getting married or does this relationship and decision need more time to be made? 'Cause I could see a lot of people, maybe you guys, I, I'm curious, have you guys seen people make a decision to get married or to save the relationship and then go abroad and move together or.

  I

  don't know. Have you guys seen that story play out

  before?  '

  I have seen that before. But I think that's a temptation of a lot of people is, to rush so that you can kind of make both things possible. 

  Yeah.

  Right. Because that's like ideal. I don't have to choose, I just get both best of both worlds.  

  Right? Yes.

  I

  would

  caution,

  however Okay.

  that

  what are the negative consequences of waiting to make a decision and thinking through? All those potential consequences. Yeah. And evaluating whether they're worth actually rushing into that decision, because I think in most cases, time as Mark said, is actually helpful.

  And that applies to relationships too. And it also could apply to the decision making process of choosing to serve overseas. 

  But Carly, I'm getting older, like 

  the

  clock is  

  ticking. Like, isn't that true? 

  To some extent, sure. But, um, if you look at the big picture of things and the big picture of your life,

  um, keep in perspective.

  It is hard to keep in perspective, but. The amount of time that we're talking about here is minimal as you look at the whole scope of your life. And if you made a potentially, serious decision that would have real consequences too soon, that can be, much more detrimental than waiting another year to make that decision.

  And maybe you'd land in that same place, but maybe you wouldn't and you would've had that extra time to sew into your relationship too, and to get to know each other better and to evaluate more if you're compatible long term, and if this is truly God's plan for you and for that person. So I think actually time is on your side here.

  And rushing into a decision is strongly advised against in. 

  you know, Michael,

  you said I'm getting old. Okay. Yeah. To the degree that, that's like a legitimate perspective of yours right now, what emotions are going on within you regarding that? 

  Yeah. I would say really bluntly how I feel right now is. I am 25 and like the feeling very specifically I have is my brother's married and he and his wife want to have kids

  soon. Yeah. And I

  want to have my kids grow up with his kids 'cause we're identical twins and it'd be so fun.

  But I am not married and I want to go spend a year abroad and then come back and thinking through everything.

  I'm like, all right, I at least gotta date somebody for a year. And then we at least gotta be married for two years probably before we pop out any kids. And this timeline's looking like I'm not gonna have kids until I'm like 30, 32 maybe. And that's if the timeline works out perfectly. And so it feels like right now I could go on a date with this girl, I'm met at the coffee shop Monday and like start that relationship and explore it.

  Or I can go abroad, spend a year abroad. Growing and experiencing different cultures and experiencing God in new ways and then coming back and like looking for somebody, but also like, I guess I could meet somebody while I'm there. Exactly. There's nothing against that. But it just feels like that is, much less plausible to happen.

  But I also just genuinely don't know, like I am, I don't know. What does living in Spain look like? What does dating in Spain look like? I have zero idea. I don't even know Spanish now. How would I talk to the person? 

  Yeah. Boy, that's a lot there, when you moved from Lincoln, which where you're from, I think. Up to Elgin, Illinois a few years  

  Yeah.  

  Did you think that Oh, man. To go to Elgin? There might not. I might miss out on people who are in Lincoln. That could be part of my future. 

  Yeah. I didn't think that because Lincoln's this tiny rural town and I'm like, Elgin's got way better possibilities 

  Yeah. But I'm thinking like, like if someone, I was thinking of this earlier, 

  but that is a good question. If 

  Someone chooses to go to a college in Indiana. Alright. They choose therefore not to go to a college in anywhere else, like in California.

  Okay. So that means this pool of potential future partners, it doesn't exist for them. The word decision comes from it's either Greek or Latin word means to cut off any other possibilities. So you go here and that kind of becomes your pool of potential partners, at least for a while. And the mission's question is a bigger, on a larger scale, right?

  You're going to a different culture, different country. But the thing is, we don't go or stay. We don't know who God, what God's up to. Absolutely. We don't know who those potential people are. For us. We have no idea. And so that's where trust has to play a  

  role. Gotta have faith 

  And surrendering your control of your own timeline, of the expectations of your timeline in your head.

  I mean, when I was formerly engaged at like age 25 and I thought, okay, here's a vision for my future, a specific timeline for my future that I could see play out. That was kind of in line with my expectations. Then when I chose to break off that engagement, that was a full surrender of the future. Yeah.

  Because it was like, what if this never happens again? What if I, what if it takes me 10 years to find someone? What if I, just said goodbye to my only potential for 

  Yeah. And that's the fear is I will never find love again.

  fear.  

  That is the fear Many people have. But I think that is what we are called to surrender, whether or not we're serving vocationally, overseas or whether we're staying here.

  We as followers of Jesus are handing over that timeline, those expectations for our own life to where God would lead us. 

  Yeah, it's, if I haven't found the person, the right person for me yet, if I go overseas another country, will I miss my right person? 

  Oh yeah. I felt that. 

  Yeah.

  You could ask the question, the flip of that, will staying prevent me from meeting my future spouse? Oh, interesting. Because they're both legit.  

  But that is definitely a feeling of I think maybe Elgin has the right person for me.

  There's a lot of people here that are similar to me and like, like-minded and I don't know what people are like abroad, wherever I'd move and so will I be able to find somebody like-minded, if the only Americans are the ones that are my team and my team's only 10 people, that's a small pool to choose from. 

  Is that, are you limiting yourself to  

  Maybe

  I am, I don't know, but like also the idea of dating somebody else that grew up in a whole different culture and knows is. Other language that I don't know how to speak yet, but we'll learn is really intimidating

  in 

  is intimidating. 

  Okay. Okay.  

  and and then what do you do?

  Do I just choose to live the rest of my life there with them? Do, then they move to the US and I mean, those are all questions you'd have to wrestle through while dating.  

  and

  those are questions that a number of our workers overseas are asking really?

  Because they meet someone overseas and love happens and, and then those questions become front and center.  

  Yeah. 

  I think on the front end this is a common question, will going will fulfilling this commitment, this calling in my life, mean sacrificing my dream of getting married. Will it mean giving up that dream forever of having a family?

  And I think you have to come to a point where you are okay with it going either direction because God will bring you to the place that he wants you and use you in the ways that He wants you and bring the right community around you and bring the right people in your life if you are walking in obedience to him.

  And if you are living in communion with him. And  

  so

  whether you go or stay, 

  whether you go or stay, right? Like you could end up single here too, even if you want to be married and want to have a family. And also trusting that he knows your desires, that he wants good things for you, and that if he brings you the right person, that will happen here or there too. And so I think like being comfortable or being willing to live in that space, live in that uncertainty and still take those steps forward. Is the right mindset to be in. And then what we often see is people are surprised with who God brings to their path.  

  Yeah.  

  happens  

  whether that's, whether that's a national, in the country where they're serving, whether that's, an American either with one collective or, you know, in some other capacity living overseas, or whether that's somebody they meet online, even like here in the States, and then have to determine where, what their futures will look like together.

  It doesn't mean closing the door to love altogether. And we've seen that time and time again that when people leave for the field single, that does definitely not mean that they're gonna remain single on the field. I 

  I

  think I, like me and maybe everyone else, and my position just needs to keep remembering that yeah, moving abroad does not mean you will be single, it actually really does not change hardly  

  It's almost irrelevant.  

  Wow. You, You,

  would say it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I will keep saying those words. Mark says it's irrelevant. You'll meet somebody  

  I, I, I mean, I mean there are different factors of course, but I don't think it directly affects whether you will find a long-term loving  

  relationship.

  Yeah, that makes sense. 

  And several of our leaders around the world have actually become relationship experts, um, by seeing, many of their teammates navigate this process for themselves and provide counsel and coaching and walking with them, supporting them through this process. Whether that means they're like.

  in a long distance relationship or they're navigating the challenges of that, or whether they meet someone on the field and they're discerning what could be the future here. Whether they're just, struggling with singleness and loneliness. That's something that a lot of our field leaders have come to.

  Yeah. Kind of embody like as a mentor role in, in many of our workers' lives. Just observing those relational, 

  Is there a team that has the highest marriage, like success rate or dating success

  rate  

  You want us to name teams?  

  Maybe

  not. No. 

  Some 

  is funny though. That is it makes sense.

  Yeah, because a lot of, like the best season of life to move abroad and have this experience is like right. When you're graduating school and you don't have a career, you don't have a family. You're not 

  the least amount of  

  And that's what I feel right now. I'm like, this is the best time of my life to, to try and do this and get this experience. 

  Absolutely.

  And when I talk to college students in classrooms, I will make this very point that this is the optimal time in five years from now. I say this, five years from now or eight years from now, you will look back on this time and you'll say, boy, I was so free then. Yeah. And yet, and so it makes it an optimal time Yeah.

  To go. 

  Yeah. So the theme I'm hearing over and over again is surrender. And trust God with your future. Whether that is you stay or you go

  and

  have patience.

  I feel like those are the two things I keep hearing you guys say, which are really hard things to do. I feel like I have things that call me out on both of those. Often, and I'm like, man, I've not surrendered this thing. Or I've retaken control of these decisions in my life all the time. And I feel like it's always a process of re,

  re, surrendering things to God.

  And that's

  really hard,

  but it is necessary. 

  Yeah. I would just say to that, Michael, that your tendency to like take things back, God doesn't look at you and judge you for that.

  You're fine. You can relax and you're fine with that.

  Just continue to listen love and his words to you and continue moving forward in your process. He doesn't condemn us. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't shame us. He's kind. Yeah. He's kind to you no matter what.  

  I just think of like prodigal son coming home. And hopefully you're not to the extreme of the prodigal son, but like, it kind of is that way.

  Like God is always delighted when you come back to him with, at whatever

  level it

  is. Okay. So, as I'm considering moving abroad, I would look at different organizations and I've found that organizations have very different beliefs on dating.

  And some are even saying you are not allowed to date if you commit to going abroad for say, a year because they say that's a distraction, which I would agree with, but might also be frustrated about. So what's one collective's perspective or take on that, and how do they navigate that in a healthy way?

  Because I think there are some like, healthy boundaries with that. 

  Yeah, I think that's a great question to be asking. One collective has chosen not to have an official policy on dating because it is such an individual question that you have to wrestle with yourself and you have to think through what's right for your situation and how the Lord is speaking to you and working in your life.

  So we don't have a policy that outlines like what's allowed and what's not allowed. However, I think it's really important to have open communication with your supervisor, which in many cases is your team leader here, with one collective about, your vision for the future, your desires, your current relationship status, challenges in your relationship.

  Because this isn't just a job, it is a life that you're gonna be living in community with people who you're serving alongside, and you should be willing to share. All aspects of your life together. And so often our leaders can offer really good wisdom or other team members who have gone through this maybe are, who are a few steps ahead.

  They can offer really good wisdom to consider and just be like a supportive ear. Somebody who can, sit with you and walk with you on this road. And in some cases our teams do have guidelines, different teams with different guidelines about how focused on language learning and culture adaptation and adjustment you need to be for the first six months or so.

  And dating might be discouraged during that period,

  or  

  be a huge  

  it could be  

  distraction. From like important things to actually  

  Yeah. And so having that open line of communication, just from the beginning, from even the application process, I think is really helpful in understanding what's gonna work best in that particular country, where you're looking at service and with the team dynamics that are at play there.

  And then also, knowing that your team leaders and the people who are around you and in community with you, want the best for you. They don't wanna limit you. They're not trying to prohibit you from finding love. They really want what's best for you. And so they're supporting you in this whole journey, and they're just trying to, provide the best outcomes for you. 

  Yeah. I would add that, just in general, this is one collective general. We have really. Kind, policies across the board that, most of our, I think almost all of our people find to be very helpful and not constricting and life giving, and this is an example of that.

   Yeah, I agree. I think it's freeing. 

  It's freeing. I'll just add too, Carly to what you said. You already said this, but like in mobilization, our job as the, as the gateway, we're the first people to talk with new people exploring us. Yeah. It is really our, initially our responsibility to get to know people as well as we can, including their relationship.

  dynamics.  

  Okay, What are some other questions? I or somebody in my position should be asking as it relates to relationships and serving a abroad? 

  The only one I would add is, of course you're single Michael, so you're not asking a question as a married man, but a married couple when they apply to us, and are accepted, we want, we look for them to be married for about a year, is the general policy before we would want them to deploy.

  I see. Exactly. And so there is that, that, that is kind of a, a timeframe that is, I think in our policy or manual somewhere. It is, but it's also not a rigid one. Every case we look at individually, we've made. E exceptions probably going one direction or the other on that. And again, the purpose is we care about people and want the best for them and for our teams.

  And so that's a policy we have for married couples. Okay,  

  So if you're engaged or married, then you'd be looking at possibly extending, you know, your onboarding, to like make sure that you're in the healthiest space possible and that you've had time to live together and like, you know, interact with each other on, on a familiar territory before moving

  to

  Unfamiliar.  

  I see. Yeah, that makes

  This has been super helpful guys, and as I continue my journey, I will continue to ask you guys 'cause I have access to you and you guys have so much wisdom and experience in this space, and so I really value your guys' input on

  this

  and I think a lot of other people will too.

  And so, um, I just wanna like summarize like the highlight of this, which I think is when you're looking at serving abroad and you feel that tension of, do I, the tension between dating and the desire to serve abroad. The answer to that would you say is surrender your desire to God and surrender this decision to God and be patient, would you say like that's, that's the key takeaway? 

  Yeah, I think that's, that's, on the right track for sure. And I think, another thing like truth that you can rest in is that, the choices that you make, the path that you follow will be a part of the road, the journey that leads you to your potential spouse and to God's will for your life, and choosing to do one thing or another will not keep you from love, and it will not necessarily lead you to love. It's all just a part of God's will and how that's manifesting in your life. 

  I'll just add the phrase, put your

  yes on the table to whatever God leads you to do.

   I will continue

  to do that

  to the best of my ability.

  Well thank you guys for listening to this episode of The Last and Change podcast in this miniseries we're gonna be tackling some more hard questions that likely a lot of people thinking about serving abroad are probably asking. And so, um, be looking for the next one coming up in a couple weeks.

  And, if you want resources, there's resources and episode description. And if you're looking at serving, feel free to sign up for a time to talk with Carly or Mark they would love to walk you through this process.

EP 2: Torn Between Leaving Well or Running Away From Your Messy Family

Episode 2 | 49 Minutes | Sept 23, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

When you feel called to cross-cultural work, the hardest part isn’t always fundraising, language learning, or even moving overseas, but navigating family. Parents, siblings, and loved ones all carry expectations, fears, and hopes for your future, and those can collide with your calling in messy ways.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

In this episode, Michael, Mark, and Carly get real about what it’s like to navigate family relationships with a desire to serve abroad. From parental fears to sibling dynamics to the tension of honoring family while stepping into obedience, this conversation is raw, honest, and deeply personal.

If you’ve ever wrestled with how to move forward when your family doesn’t fully understand your calling, this episode is for you.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• How family influence, especially parents, can shape or even stall decisions to serve abroad.

• Why open, prayerful, and ongoing conversations with loved ones matter (and how to have them).

• Practical ways to navigate fear, sacrifice, and the reality of leaving family while still honoring them.

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

   Hey guys, just wanted to quickly welcome you to episode one of the Torn Between Podcasts. It's a podcast where we dive into some of the biggest fears and questions that we've seen a lot of people struggle with when they are pursuing the idea of cross-cultural work and doing it abroad. So, uh, welcome to episode one.

  This episode is all about relationships. And so if you're somebody that. Is in a relationship or maybe would like to be, but you're a little fearful of how moving abroad and doing cross-cultural work and entering this type of work would affect that this episode's for you. And so we dive into a bunch of examples, a lot of fears, and um, a lot of really good questions.

  And Mark and Carly have a lot of wisdom about this. So, um, buckle up. Hope you enjoy this first episode of Torn Between.

   Hey everyone and welcome to this miniseries of the Last and Change

  podcast.

  Today we are gonna be talking about, a topic that. Maybe makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but everyone absolutely, everyone feels and thinks about, which is relationships and the tension between do I stay for a relationship or do I go abroad, which is what I also want to do.

  And what does, how does that impact my opportunity for relationships in the future?

  So today with me, I have my host, 

  Carly.

  Hello, 

  And Mark. 

  Hi, I'm Mark. 

  I have

  a

  few things and a few questions that I personally can bring in this space, which feels a little uncomfortable because I'm like, all right, time to talk about my love life with Mark and Carly.

  Yeah, I know. I love you guys. I feel very safe with you guys. Would you guys like to give any context, to this before we dive in?  

  just that this tension between dating and serving is something like Michael said that I think is pretty universal nowadays, especially as we're recruiting younger

  potential workers to work with one collective. They're always thinking forward.

  They're thinking about their future, they're thinking about their career, they're thinking about potential relationships, and they're evaluating the risk and reward,

  for making these decisions. And I think it's something that we talk through with many people on the front end. And then we also see a lot of relationships and love blossom on the field.

  So it's fun to see that side of it too, but it's a pretty common theme that we see. 

  Yeah. 

  Yeah. Yeah. I am talking with this, person right now who. I started to talk conversation with her about eight months ago. She had a dream that she was maybe supposed to go to a certain country overseas.

  And so I've had a number of conversations with her. She filled out an application, references things were looking good. And then a couple weeks ago she says, I met someone.  

  And she's not going abroad anymore. 

  She is wrestling with that question. 

  Okay. She feels the tension. 

  She feels the tension. Yes. She not good. It looks like she might be leaning toward No for now. Okay. But she's wrestling with this tension of love and, her sense of calling. 

  Yeah. I feel like that is the exact tension I was feeling like a year ago now almost.

  A year ago I was in a relationship with somebody. We were dating maybe six months at that point, but I ended up traveling to Santiago, Spain. Ended up meeting some really amazing people that work for one collective there and just bonded. We were just chatting, doing life, and I shared that it is one of my goals to move abroad at some point and not just move abroad anywhere, but move abroad to a place that I can learn the language through immersion.

  Because I really have this sense of like, I want to be able to meet people where they are. 'cause I feel like most. People in other cultures with other languages always learn English and they're always meeting me where I am, which I'm really grateful for. But I, I, at least with one language, I wanna be able to try and meet somebody else where they are.

  And Spanish is a great language to learn, especially even here in America. Just share some of this with Dusty and Jordy and then ended up coming back after vacation. And then Dusty reached out and he's like, Hey Michael, can we jump on a call? And I was like, sure, we'd love to just hang out. And we jumped on a call and he said, pretty much I wanted to get on a call with you just to show how serious I am about this.

  But you shared some of these desires that you have and I think that you're a really cool person and I really would love to do life with you, at least for a time. Would you want to move here to Santiago live life with me and work remotely? And he literally like laid out all of these things about how he could help me convince my boss and upper leadership to let me work remotely for a year and how it'd be beneficial.

  And he's like, totally here to help you, like figure out the visa and everything. Like he, he went through every barrier and I was like, wow, I feel so valued and wanted, and also you're doing this to help me achieve a goal that I want. And so it was just like above and beyond and it was really significant.

  But I was dating this girl and I really wrestled with, do I go abroad? And leave her. Or do I stay in this relationship, which is a genuine, like good opportunity that I had right then. And I wrestled with God for a long time with that and had conversations with her. And the conversations ended with we either get married and we move abroad together, which like first year married, moving in abroad does not sound like you're setting yourself up for success.

  Two, I was not ready to get 

  married. Yeah, that's a big 

  Yeah, yeah. Or three you move abroad and we break up. And that was it. That was where we, we landed after a lot of conversations that were really hard. And so I ended up landing in the space of, okay, I'm going to choose to continue to pursue this relationship to see where it goes.

  And, 'cause I wasn't ready to call quits on it, but I also was not ready to be like, let's get hitched. But now here I am a year later and out of that relationship, which is sad, now I'm reconsidering. Do I move abroad now? Is this the time? 

  I just want to pick up on a phrase you used you said you were really wrestling with God, I just wanna say this whole topic, we can have, specific points we cover and things we look at. But this really is a matter of discernment and a lot of discernment happens outside of here are the points to consider.

  And so I really appreciate your, you introducing the realm of discernment and even spirituality. Like it's an invisible thing. Yeah. Trying to figure out these things. God's will call it. 

  Let me ask you guys a question about that, how do you guys walk with applicants who have made this decision and like so many different applicants, how have you walked with them and helped them to discern what God's will is for them? 

  Yeah, that's a really big question to consider, and it's something that I think we're all perpetually doing in our own lives, right?

  Yeah. So we're just. A guide for people. We can't make that discernment decision for them in any way, shape or form. We are just supporting them really through this process as they're wrestling with these questions with God directly and with wise counsel in their lives and with maybe a person that they're in a relationship with or considering being in a relationship with, prior to going.

  But I think it's really important to remember what was the calling moment in your life? How did God reveal that to you? And has that changed in any way? Or is that a separate thing from this newfound exciting relationship possibility in your life? Because remembering. The calling I think is an important exercise for people to do.

  'cause it is easy to get cloudy in that when something else pops up, even when like another type of distraction comes during this process that can also cloud your vision for the future and keep you from remembering or stay in the course of your calling. So I think that's a really key conversation to have is just helping them reflect back on what was this initial calling, how did it manifest, what did it look like?

  And what is, my vision for the, my future in ministry. Whether that's going to be, vocational ministry or ministry outside of a vocation. 

  Yeah. I would, add a few things. Maybe a curve ball, so like calling, yes, but sometimes God adjusts his calling or I was talking with this one person who had this dream, same person I mentioned before, had this dream of going to a certain location and

  halfway through our process, we came to the realization that this dream would, did not represent her ultimate destination, but it was to get her moving forward on her path of exploring. Absolutely. So she ended up wanting to go somewhere else before she met someone. The other thing I would say about calling is, I'll just share a definition that Carly and I use a lot in mobilization, and that is that calling is essentially stewarding your next steps in life, relationships, and career. That is so helpful because calling doesn't have to be this big. Oh, God's called me to reach the poor in a certain city in Ethiopia. Maybe God is simply calling me now in my life to take the next step with this person that I'm, I have a friendship with, whatever.

  And you don't have to figure it all out. You simply have to discern, listen different ways for what is that next step I'm  

  Yeah.  

  If they're in a spot where they have a potential relationship on the horizon or they've entered a relationship and now they're at this crossroads of making a decision of whether to stay in a relationship or whether to move forward with, you know, their initial commitment or their initial desire to serve overseas, we also have to look at or help them.

  Explore,

  what

  is this person that's now in their life? What is their vision for their future? And are those two aligned? Or are they in conflict in some way? And are the feelings around this person overpowering? Or, just have a bigger presence in their life in this decision making than, and looking at.

  Their futures together and whether those will compliment each other, whether that's in ministry or any other thing, like whether it's like where in the world do you wanna live, whether it's, if you wanna have kids, like all those things are obviously super important discussions to have in a relationship.

  And thinking about your vision for your future might have to come earlier in a relationship's timeline when it involves somebody who is considering serving overseas. Because that changes the dynamic of the relationship so much, that they might have to have those discussions at an earlier point, than maybe they would naturally. 

  Maybe not like first date type thing, but  

  maybe though, 

  third, like, hey, just a heads up thinking to move abroad. 

  Yeah. 

  as we're developing this relationship. That's a, I get Yeah, that's a big deal.

  Definitely. So Carla, you mentioned, like looking back at the original space where like you were called. And so I'm just curious can you guys like walk me through that? Like I am in this process and I could think of ideas and spaces where like my original calling was, but I dunno, it was missions night at a church camp maybe?

  Or was it while I was studying at university? I don't know. So I'm curious, like, use me as a case study. How would you guys walk somebody through

   So you have had an experience of some kind with God where you are sensing a call to serve? 

  Yeah, it's super general though. Like I feel like I've been called to love people well wherever I 

  Mm. 

  And I think I'm been really uniquely equipped. And so like there's specific spaces that I just can do that better because of my experience I've had. But I also don't wanna be like limited to only trying to serve in the ways that I feel comfortable or

  capable. of

  doing it.

  'cause I

  know God can use us in really unique ways that we're not

  expecting.  

  What's happening within me right now is I am just automatically putting my, not putting myself, I'm in this conversation with Michael Proctor.

  Yeah. And I am now seeking to like, invite you into to walk with one collective and work with us. Yeah. So what I would do is I have just a series of questions that I ask, and we don't have to make this an official interview, right now, but it's like I would ask you things like, um. What are your skills? 

  Yeah.

  Which I know when I first came to one collective, that was one of the first questions you asked me.

  And I said, videography. And at the time I literally was like, barely, I barely knew what I was doing. And 

  knew. I think I remember 

  and you were like, great, you wanna go to Bulgaria, Albanian, South Africa And 19-year-old

  me was like, heck yeah.

  It

  was a developing skill.

  Yeah.

  And luckily, like that trip was postponed a couple times, thank God, because my skills developed a

  lot

  during the times.

  It was

  Well. But yeah, that was a really helpful  

  question.

  Maybe

  partly the way I'm, I'm what I want say here is that for someone exploring like it's, we ask a series of questions to really get to know them as well as we can, and then see if there is a pathway that makes sense for them to work maybe with one of our locations around the world doing something that you are really passionate about.

  I see. And then we would ask are you drawn to any parts of the world? Yeah. Are you drawn to work with any certain demographics? But it takes time. Yeah. There's no one interview that brings us to an answer. Yeah. It takes time reflecting prayer, but that has to happen over time. 

  Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I know we chatted off and on I think it was like three years before I ended up going 

  abroad. Really? Okay. I think so. Yeah. Partly COVID was in the mix. I  

  that definitely delayed. it like 

  I tell a lot of people that time is a great clarifier.

   As it is with relationships as well. And I think, I mean, you're sensing a pull at this. Point in your life or even a year ago in your life to have a new experience to serve and use your skills in a new context and a new capacity. And I think like you don't wanna ignore that pole, that sense that God might be opening a door for you somewhere and asking you to walk through.

  And so then you have to weigh what are your other values in your life? What are things

  that

  might be really good that might be enriching to your life, but. That, may limit you, from being able to have the fullest experience here and relationships may or may not be a part of that equation.

  And like last year when you evaluated this, it was a really big part of this equation to the point where you made the decision to wait knowing too that this invitation might, remain open. Where like this relationship needed your current attention and the invitation to serve or to move or to have this new experience, could be on the table later.

  That you might be able to take that up at a different point. And so I think like looking at, the timing of these things is also really important as you're evaluating. This potential relationship or current relationship and the opportunity to serve.  

  It's kind of an all encompassing process.

  It's not something that we're essentially just trying to figure out. There is that part of it. We want to use our conscious mind to figure things out. But Gabor mate, my favorite. Canadian physician says that our conscious minds are only 6% of our evaluative faculties. the rest of it is all internal.

  It's subconscious. Trying to figure things out with absolute certainty and clarity often isn't possible. And I will sometimes share with people, a quote by Mother Theresa where, this ethicist, I forget his name, asked her on a visit to Calcutta, will you please pray for me? She said, how would you like me to pray for you?

  Pray that I have certainty about a matter. And she laughed and she said, he said, she said, that's the last thing I'm gonna pray about for you. And he said, you always seem like so confident and certain. And she said, no, I don't have certainty. I have trust. And so very often, many of our people will get to a place where maybe they're 80% certain about the way forward, or 65 or 91, but there has to come a step where you're a place where you're gonna step into the unknown with a level of trust in the God that you are in relationship  

  yeah, like how do we get to that place? Because I'm reflecting and thinking about, I was at times 50, 50 at times 20, 80, and I felt like I was just fluctuating so much. What percentage do I hit before I make that choice? And

  then

  how spell formula 

  is,  

  I wanna formula  

  I know sometimes  

  our

  actions actually proceed like our feelings. In this area, we have to take an action and place our trust in the Lord by taking a step forward and knowing that maybe our feelings will follow. so it's not always that it's leading with oh, I feel like I

  can

  and then I'll make that decision and then I'll take that action.

  So I think it's about sensing and discerning where he's calling you to be obedient in like just one step. Yeah. And having faith in the future. And having faith that like, is God really a good father? Who wants the best thing for you in your life and wants to give you good gifts and not just teach you hard lessons.

  That was a thing I had to learn through relationships, through experiences that I had, that he wasn't just putting relationships in my life to like teach me hard lessons and help me like sharpen, myself and become holier really. He wanted to give me good gifts to bless me, and that also involves saying no to a relationship.

  It involves saying no to some other things that. I, was questioning the value of, and was questioning whether these were from God. But when I really saw him as a good father who wanted what's absolutely best for me and wanted to bless me, then I think it, things became clearer, in my life.

  And I was able to move forward and trust knowing that good things were ahead. Not that I had said no to something. So then that was my one and only chance. But that good things were truly ahead and, and that played out, in my life and good things were ahead. So

  I think, that trust

  in father and your good

  father thing to  

  remember.

  That's hard to remember because I think oftentimes, and I think a lot of other people probably feel this, that there's one right answer. Yeah. And I think oftentimes God is more like, Hey, you have. Free will and I have created you with free will and choice. And I want you to choose me, but I also want you to like, to use the power of free will, which I've given you, and to choose what is good and what you also desire.

  And I, and I want that to align also with what I desire. And I think the fear is I have two doors that are open and it feels like God's opened both of them. But I still could choose the wrong one and then like God would be disappointed in me, life would be terrible if I choose like the wrong one.

  And I'm always fearful of will I choose correctly? 

  I you're right that's a pretty common, way of seeing this topic. Sometimes I tell people, if it's someone whose heart seems to be really in a great place, I will tell them, you're not gonna miss it. I don't think God is up there with these two doors and better pick the right one, or you're gonna get on my bad list.

  I don't think he does that. I think that's a false construct. He's a kind father and he wants to give us good things. Yeah. And he will in this area as well. It's a big area, big topic like relationships and going overseas, but I don't think we're gonna miss it. Hmm. 

  Okay. A few things are coming to mind and a lot of fears I think are coming to mind for me. One is the fear of making a decision too quickly because of the pressure of trying to move abroad, which is kind of what I mentioned with this girl I was dating last year, that the decision we came to was we get married and move abroad and I was really struggling with the sense of is this a good motivator to expedite the decision of getting married or does this relationship and decision need more time to be made? 'Cause I could see a lot of people, maybe you guys, I, I'm curious, have you guys seen people make a decision to get married or to save the relationship and then go abroad and move together or.

  I

  don't know. Have you guys seen that story play out

  before?  '

  I have seen that before. But I think that's a temptation of a lot of people is, to rush so that you can kind of make both things possible. 

  Yeah.

  Right. Because that's like ideal. I don't have to choose, I just get both best of both worlds.  

  Right? Yes.

  I

  would

  caution,

  however Okay.

  that

  what are the negative consequences of waiting to make a decision and thinking through? All those potential consequences. Yeah. And evaluating whether they're worth actually rushing into that decision, because I think in most cases, time as Mark said, is actually helpful.

  And that applies to relationships too. And it also could apply to the decision making process of choosing to serve overseas. 

  But Carly, I'm getting older, like 

  the

  clock is  

  ticking. Like, isn't that true? 

  To some extent, sure. But, um, if you look at the big picture of things and the big picture of your life,

  um, keep in perspective.

  It is hard to keep in perspective, but. The amount of time that we're talking about here is minimal as you look at the whole scope of your life. And if you made a potentially, serious decision that would have real consequences too soon, that can be, much more detrimental than waiting another year to make that decision.

  And maybe you'd land in that same place, but maybe you wouldn't and you would've had that extra time to sew into your relationship too, and to get to know each other better and to evaluate more if you're compatible long term, and if this is truly God's plan for you and for that person. So I think actually time is on your side here.

  And rushing into a decision is strongly advised against in. 

  you know, Michael,

  you said I'm getting old. Okay. Yeah. To the degree that, that's like a legitimate perspective of yours right now, what emotions are going on within you regarding that? 

  Yeah. I would say really bluntly how I feel right now is. I am 25 and like the feeling very specifically I have is my brother's married and he and his wife want to have kids

  soon. Yeah. And I

  want to have my kids grow up with his kids 'cause we're identical twins and it'd be so fun.

  But I am not married and I want to go spend a year abroad and then come back and thinking through everything.

  I'm like, all right, I at least gotta date somebody for a year. And then we at least gotta be married for two years probably before we pop out any kids. And this timeline's looking like I'm not gonna have kids until I'm like 30, 32 maybe. And that's if the timeline works out perfectly. And so it feels like right now I could go on a date with this girl, I'm met at the coffee shop Monday and like start that relationship and explore it.

  Or I can go abroad, spend a year abroad. Growing and experiencing different cultures and experiencing God in new ways and then coming back and like looking for somebody, but also like, I guess I could meet somebody while I'm there. Exactly. There's nothing against that. But it just feels like that is, much less plausible to happen.

  But I also just genuinely don't know, like I am, I don't know. What does living in Spain look like? What does dating in Spain look like? I have zero idea. I don't even know Spanish now. How would I talk to the person? 

  Yeah. Boy, that's a lot there, when you moved from Lincoln, which where you're from, I think. Up to Elgin, Illinois a few years  

  Yeah.  

  Did you think that Oh, man. To go to Elgin? There might not. I might miss out on people who are in Lincoln. That could be part of my future. 

  Yeah. I didn't think that because Lincoln's this tiny rural town and I'm like, Elgin's got way better possibilities 

  Yeah. But I'm thinking like, like if someone, I was thinking of this earlier, 

  but that is a good question. If 

  Someone chooses to go to a college in Indiana. Alright. They choose therefore not to go to a college in anywhere else, like in California.

  Okay. So that means this pool of potential future partners, it doesn't exist for them. The word decision comes from it's either Greek or Latin word means to cut off any other possibilities. So you go here and that kind of becomes your pool of potential partners, at least for a while. And the mission's question is a bigger, on a larger scale, right?

  You're going to a different culture, different country. But the thing is, we don't go or stay. We don't know who God, what God's up to. Absolutely. We don't know who those potential people are. For us. We have no idea. And so that's where trust has to play a  

  role. Gotta have faith 

  And surrendering your control of your own timeline, of the expectations of your timeline in your head.

  I mean, when I was formerly engaged at like age 25 and I thought, okay, here's a vision for my future, a specific timeline for my future that I could see play out. That was kind of in line with my expectations. Then when I chose to break off that engagement, that was a full surrender of the future. Yeah.

  Because it was like, what if this never happens again? What if I, what if it takes me 10 years to find someone? What if I, just said goodbye to my only potential for 

  Yeah. And that's the fear is I will never find love again.

  fear.  

  That is the fear Many people have. But I think that is what we are called to surrender, whether or not we're serving vocationally, overseas or whether we're staying here.

  We as followers of Jesus are handing over that timeline, those expectations for our own life to where God would lead us. 

  Yeah, it's, if I haven't found the person, the right person for me yet, if I go overseas another country, will I miss my right person? 

  Oh yeah. I felt that. 

  Yeah.

  You could ask the question, the flip of that, will staying prevent me from meeting my future spouse? Oh, interesting. Because they're both legit.  

  But that is definitely a feeling of I think maybe Elgin has the right person for me.

  There's a lot of people here that are similar to me and like, like-minded and I don't know what people are like abroad, wherever I'd move and so will I be able to find somebody like-minded, if the only Americans are the ones that are my team and my team's only 10 people, that's a small pool to choose from. 

  Is that, are you limiting yourself to  

  Maybe

  I am, I don't know, but like also the idea of dating somebody else that grew up in a whole different culture and knows is. Other language that I don't know how to speak yet, but we'll learn is really intimidating

  in 

  is intimidating. 

  Okay. Okay.  

  and and then what do you do?

  Do I just choose to live the rest of my life there with them? Do, then they move to the US and I mean, those are all questions you'd have to wrestle through while dating.  

  and

  those are questions that a number of our workers overseas are asking really?

  Because they meet someone overseas and love happens and, and then those questions become front and center.  

  Yeah. 

  I think on the front end this is a common question, will going will fulfilling this commitment, this calling in my life, mean sacrificing my dream of getting married. Will it mean giving up that dream forever of having a family?

  And I think you have to come to a point where you are okay with it going either direction because God will bring you to the place that he wants you and use you in the ways that He wants you and bring the right community around you and bring the right people in your life if you are walking in obedience to him.

  And if you are living in communion with him. And  

  so

  whether you go or stay, 

  whether you go or stay, right? Like you could end up single here too, even if you want to be married and want to have a family. And also trusting that he knows your desires, that he wants good things for you, and that if he brings you the right person, that will happen here or there too. And so I think like being comfortable or being willing to live in that space, live in that uncertainty and still take those steps forward. Is the right mindset to be in. And then what we often see is people are surprised with who God brings to their path.  

  Yeah.  

  happens  

  whether that's, whether that's a national, in the country where they're serving, whether that's, an American either with one collective or, you know, in some other capacity living overseas, or whether that's somebody they meet online, even like here in the States, and then have to determine where, what their futures will look like together.

  It doesn't mean closing the door to love altogether. And we've seen that time and time again that when people leave for the field single, that does definitely not mean that they're gonna remain single on the field. I 

  I

  think I, like me and maybe everyone else, and my position just needs to keep remembering that yeah, moving abroad does not mean you will be single, it actually really does not change hardly  

  It's almost irrelevant.  

  Wow. You, You,

  would say it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I will keep saying those words. Mark says it's irrelevant. You'll meet somebody  

  I, I, I mean, I mean there are different factors of course, but I don't think it directly affects whether you will find a long-term loving  

  relationship.

  Yeah, that makes sense. 

  And several of our leaders around the world have actually become relationship experts, um, by seeing, many of their teammates navigate this process for themselves and provide counsel and coaching and walking with them, supporting them through this process. Whether that means they're like.

  in a long distance relationship or they're navigating the challenges of that, or whether they meet someone on the field and they're discerning what could be the future here. Whether they're just, struggling with singleness and loneliness. That's something that a lot of our field leaders have come to.

  Yeah. Kind of embody like as a mentor role in, in many of our workers' lives. Just observing those relational, 

  Is there a team that has the highest marriage, like success rate or dating success

  rate  

  You want us to name teams?  

  Maybe

  not. No. 

  Some 

  is funny though. That is it makes sense.

  Yeah, because a lot of, like the best season of life to move abroad and have this experience is like right. When you're graduating school and you don't have a career, you don't have a family. You're not 

  the least amount of  

  And that's what I feel right now. I'm like, this is the best time of my life to, to try and do this and get this experience. 

  Absolutely.

  And when I talk to college students in classrooms, I will make this very point that this is the optimal time in five years from now. I say this, five years from now or eight years from now, you will look back on this time and you'll say, boy, I was so free then. Yeah. And yet, and so it makes it an optimal time Yeah.

  To go. 

  Yeah. So the theme I'm hearing over and over again is surrender. And trust God with your future. Whether that is you stay or you go

  and

  have patience.

  I feel like those are the two things I keep hearing you guys say, which are really hard things to do. I feel like I have things that call me out on both of those. Often, and I'm like, man, I've not surrendered this thing. Or I've retaken control of these decisions in my life all the time. And I feel like it's always a process of re,

  re, surrendering things to God.

  And that's

  really hard,

  but it is necessary. 

  Yeah. I would just say to that, Michael, that your tendency to like take things back, God doesn't look at you and judge you for that.

  You're fine. You can relax and you're fine with that.

  Just continue to listen love and his words to you and continue moving forward in your process. He doesn't condemn us. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't shame us. He's kind. Yeah. He's kind to you no matter what.  

  I just think of like prodigal son coming home. And hopefully you're not to the extreme of the prodigal son, but like, it kind of is that way.

  Like God is always delighted when you come back to him with, at whatever

  level it

  is. Okay. So, as I'm considering moving abroad, I would look at different organizations and I've found that organizations have very different beliefs on dating.

  And some are even saying you are not allowed to date if you commit to going abroad for say, a year because they say that's a distraction, which I would agree with, but might also be frustrated about. So what's one collective's perspective or take on that, and how do they navigate that in a healthy way?

  Because I think there are some like, healthy boundaries with that. 

  Yeah, I think that's a great question to be asking. One collective has chosen not to have an official policy on dating because it is such an individual question that you have to wrestle with yourself and you have to think through what's right for your situation and how the Lord is speaking to you and working in your life.

  So we don't have a policy that outlines like what's allowed and what's not allowed. However, I think it's really important to have open communication with your supervisor, which in many cases is your team leader here, with one collective about, your vision for the future, your desires, your current relationship status, challenges in your relationship.

  Because this isn't just a job, it is a life that you're gonna be living in community with people who you're serving alongside, and you should be willing to share. All aspects of your life together. And so often our leaders can offer really good wisdom or other team members who have gone through this maybe are, who are a few steps ahead.

  They can offer really good wisdom to consider and just be like a supportive ear. Somebody who can, sit with you and walk with you on this road. And in some cases our teams do have guidelines, different teams with different guidelines about how focused on language learning and culture adaptation and adjustment you need to be for the first six months or so.

  And dating might be discouraged during that period,

  or  

  be a huge  

  it could be  

  distraction. From like important things to actually  

  Yeah. And so having that open line of communication, just from the beginning, from even the application process, I think is really helpful in understanding what's gonna work best in that particular country, where you're looking at service and with the team dynamics that are at play there.

  And then also, knowing that your team leaders and the people who are around you and in community with you, want the best for you. They don't wanna limit you. They're not trying to prohibit you from finding love. They really want what's best for you. And so they're supporting you in this whole journey, and they're just trying to, provide the best outcomes for you. 

  Yeah. I would add that, just in general, this is one collective general. We have really. Kind, policies across the board that, most of our, I think almost all of our people find to be very helpful and not constricting and life giving, and this is an example of that.

   Yeah, I agree. I think it's freeing. 

  It's freeing. I'll just add too, Carly to what you said. You already said this, but like in mobilization, our job as the, as the gateway, we're the first people to talk with new people exploring us. Yeah. It is really our, initially our responsibility to get to know people as well as we can, including their relationship.

  dynamics.  

  Okay, What are some other questions? I or somebody in my position should be asking as it relates to relationships and serving a abroad? 

  The only one I would add is, of course you're single Michael, so you're not asking a question as a married man, but a married couple when they apply to us, and are accepted, we want, we look for them to be married for about a year, is the general policy before we would want them to deploy.

  I see. Exactly. And so there is that, that, that is kind of a, a timeframe that is, I think in our policy or manual somewhere. It is, but it's also not a rigid one. Every case we look at individually, we've made. E exceptions probably going one direction or the other on that. And again, the purpose is we care about people and want the best for them and for our teams.

  And so that's a policy we have for married couples. Okay,  

  So if you're engaged or married, then you'd be looking at possibly extending, you know, your onboarding, to like make sure that you're in the healthiest space possible and that you've had time to live together and like, you know, interact with each other on, on a familiar territory before moving

  to

  Unfamiliar.  

  I see. Yeah, that makes

  This has been super helpful guys, and as I continue my journey, I will continue to ask you guys 'cause I have access to you and you guys have so much wisdom and experience in this space, and so I really value your guys' input on

  this

  and I think a lot of other people will too.

  And so, um, I just wanna like summarize like the highlight of this, which I think is when you're looking at serving abroad and you feel that tension of, do I, the tension between dating and the desire to serve abroad. The answer to that would you say is surrender your desire to God and surrender this decision to God and be patient, would you say like that's, that's the key takeaway? 

  Yeah, I think that's, that's, on the right track for sure. And I think, another thing like truth that you can rest in is that, the choices that you make, the path that you follow will be a part of the road, the journey that leads you to your potential spouse and to God's will for your life, and choosing to do one thing or another will not keep you from love, and it will not necessarily lead you to love. It's all just a part of God's will and how that's manifesting in your life. 

  I'll just add the phrase, put your

  yes on the table to whatever God leads you to do.

   I will continue

  to do that

  to the best of my ability.

  Well thank you guys for listening to this episode of The Last and Change podcast in this miniseries we're gonna be tackling some more hard questions that likely a lot of people thinking about serving abroad are probably asking. And so, um, be looking for the next one coming up in a couple weeks.

  And, if you want resources, there's resources and episode description. And if you're looking at serving, feel free to sign up for a time to talk with Carly or Mark they would love to walk you through this process.

EP 1: Torn Between Dating and Serving Abroad

Episode 1 | 49 Minutes | Sept 9, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving for cross-cultural work.

You're thinking about moving abroad to serve, but you're also in a relationship. Or you want to be. And now you're torn between the two.

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

If you feel this, then you're not alone. Join us as we unpack one of the most complicated and emotional questions people wrestle with: How does my relationship or desire for one fit into a calling to cross-cultural work? In this episode, we share personal stories and honest reflection, we explore what it means to surrender our timelines, trust God, and make space for both desire and discernment.

---

What You’ll Learn:

• How to navigate the emotional tension between pursuing love and following a calling

• Why trusting God with your timeline doesn’t mean giving up your desires

• What it looks like to wrestle honestly with questions about relationships, faith, and the future

• About the Host

• Episode Transcript

   Hey guys, just wanted to quickly welcome you to episode one of the Torn Between Podcasts. It's a podcast where we dive into some of the biggest fears and questions that we've seen a lot of people struggle with when they are pursuing the idea of cross-cultural work and doing it abroad. So, uh, welcome to episode one.

  This episode is all about relationships. And so if you're somebody that. Is in a relationship or maybe would like to be, but you're a little fearful of how moving abroad and doing cross-cultural work and entering this type of work would affect that this episode's for you. And so we dive into a bunch of examples, a lot of fears, and um, a lot of really good questions.

  And Mark and Carly have a lot of wisdom about this. So, um, buckle up. Hope you enjoy this first episode of Torn Between.

   Hey everyone and welcome to this miniseries of the Last and Change

  podcast.

  Today we are gonna be talking about, a topic that. Maybe makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but everyone absolutely, everyone feels and thinks about, which is relationships and the tension between do I stay for a relationship or do I go abroad, which is what I also want to do.

  And what does, how does that impact my opportunity for relationships in the future?

  So today with me, I have my host, 

  Carly.

  Hello, 

  And Mark. 

  Hi, I'm Mark. 

  I have

  a

  few things and a few questions that I personally can bring in this space, which feels a little uncomfortable because I'm like, all right, time to talk about my love life with Mark and Carly.

  Yeah, I know. I love you guys. I feel very safe with you guys. Would you guys like to give any context, to this before we dive in?  

  just that this tension between dating and serving is something like Michael said that I think is pretty universal nowadays, especially as we're recruiting younger

  potential workers to work with one collective. They're always thinking forward.

  They're thinking about their future, they're thinking about their career, they're thinking about potential relationships, and they're evaluating the risk and reward,

  for making these decisions. And I think it's something that we talk through with many people on the front end. And then we also see a lot of relationships and love blossom on the field.

  So it's fun to see that side of it too, but it's a pretty common theme that we see. 

  Yeah. 

  Yeah. Yeah. I am talking with this, person right now who. I started to talk conversation with her about eight months ago. She had a dream that she was maybe supposed to go to a certain country overseas.

  And so I've had a number of conversations with her. She filled out an application, references things were looking good. And then a couple weeks ago she says, I met someone.  

  And she's not going abroad anymore. 

  She is wrestling with that question. 

  Okay. She feels the tension. 

  She feels the tension. Yes. She not good. It looks like she might be leaning toward No for now. Okay. But she's wrestling with this tension of love and, her sense of calling. 

  Yeah. I feel like that is the exact tension I was feeling like a year ago now almost.

  A year ago I was in a relationship with somebody. We were dating maybe six months at that point, but I ended up traveling to Santiago, Spain. Ended up meeting some really amazing people that work for one collective there and just bonded. We were just chatting, doing life, and I shared that it is one of my goals to move abroad at some point and not just move abroad anywhere, but move abroad to a place that I can learn the language through immersion.

  Because I really have this sense of like, I want to be able to meet people where they are. 'cause I feel like most. People in other cultures with other languages always learn English and they're always meeting me where I am, which I'm really grateful for. But I, I, at least with one language, I wanna be able to try and meet somebody else where they are.

  And Spanish is a great language to learn, especially even here in America. Just share some of this with Dusty and Jordy and then ended up coming back after vacation. And then Dusty reached out and he's like, Hey Michael, can we jump on a call? And I was like, sure, we'd love to just hang out. And we jumped on a call and he said, pretty much I wanted to get on a call with you just to show how serious I am about this.

  But you shared some of these desires that you have and I think that you're a really cool person and I really would love to do life with you, at least for a time. Would you want to move here to Santiago live life with me and work remotely? And he literally like laid out all of these things about how he could help me convince my boss and upper leadership to let me work remotely for a year and how it'd be beneficial.

  And he's like, totally here to help you, like figure out the visa and everything. Like he, he went through every barrier and I was like, wow, I feel so valued and wanted, and also you're doing this to help me achieve a goal that I want. And so it was just like above and beyond and it was really significant.

  But I was dating this girl and I really wrestled with, do I go abroad? And leave her. Or do I stay in this relationship, which is a genuine, like good opportunity that I had right then. And I wrestled with God for a long time with that and had conversations with her. And the conversations ended with we either get married and we move abroad together, which like first year married, moving in abroad does not sound like you're setting yourself up for success.

  Two, I was not ready to get 

  married. Yeah, that's a big 

  Yeah, yeah. Or three you move abroad and we break up. And that was it. That was where we, we landed after a lot of conversations that were really hard. And so I ended up landing in the space of, okay, I'm going to choose to continue to pursue this relationship to see where it goes.

  And, 'cause I wasn't ready to call quits on it, but I also was not ready to be like, let's get hitched. But now here I am a year later and out of that relationship, which is sad, now I'm reconsidering. Do I move abroad now? Is this the time? 

  I just want to pick up on a phrase you used you said you were really wrestling with God, I just wanna say this whole topic, we can have, specific points we cover and things we look at. But this really is a matter of discernment and a lot of discernment happens outside of here are the points to consider.

  And so I really appreciate your, you introducing the realm of discernment and even spirituality. Like it's an invisible thing. Yeah. Trying to figure out these things. God's will call it. 

  Let me ask you guys a question about that, how do you guys walk with applicants who have made this decision and like so many different applicants, how have you walked with them and helped them to discern what God's will is for them? 

  Yeah, that's a really big question to consider, and it's something that I think we're all perpetually doing in our own lives, right?

  Yeah. So we're just. A guide for people. We can't make that discernment decision for them in any way, shape or form. We are just supporting them really through this process as they're wrestling with these questions with God directly and with wise counsel in their lives and with maybe a person that they're in a relationship with or considering being in a relationship with, prior to going.

  But I think it's really important to remember what was the calling moment in your life? How did God reveal that to you? And has that changed in any way? Or is that a separate thing from this newfound exciting relationship possibility in your life? Because remembering. The calling I think is an important exercise for people to do.

  'cause it is easy to get cloudy in that when something else pops up, even when like another type of distraction comes during this process that can also cloud your vision for the future and keep you from remembering or stay in the course of your calling. So I think that's a really key conversation to have is just helping them reflect back on what was this initial calling, how did it manifest, what did it look like?

  And what is, my vision for the, my future in ministry. Whether that's going to be, vocational ministry or ministry outside of a vocation. 

  Yeah. I would, add a few things. Maybe a curve ball, so like calling, yes, but sometimes God adjusts his calling or I was talking with this one person who had this dream, same person I mentioned before, had this dream of going to a certain location and

  halfway through our process, we came to the realization that this dream would, did not represent her ultimate destination, but it was to get her moving forward on her path of exploring. Absolutely. So she ended up wanting to go somewhere else before she met someone. The other thing I would say about calling is, I'll just share a definition that Carly and I use a lot in mobilization, and that is that calling is essentially stewarding your next steps in life, relationships, and career. That is so helpful because calling doesn't have to be this big. Oh, God's called me to reach the poor in a certain city in Ethiopia. Maybe God is simply calling me now in my life to take the next step with this person that I'm, I have a friendship with, whatever.

  And you don't have to figure it all out. You simply have to discern, listen different ways for what is that next step I'm  

  Yeah.  

  If they're in a spot where they have a potential relationship on the horizon or they've entered a relationship and now they're at this crossroads of making a decision of whether to stay in a relationship or whether to move forward with, you know, their initial commitment or their initial desire to serve overseas, we also have to look at or help them.

  Explore,

  what

  is this person that's now in their life? What is their vision for their future? And are those two aligned? Or are they in conflict in some way? And are the feelings around this person overpowering? Or, just have a bigger presence in their life in this decision making than, and looking at.

  Their futures together and whether those will compliment each other, whether that's in ministry or any other thing, like whether it's like where in the world do you wanna live, whether it's, if you wanna have kids, like all those things are obviously super important discussions to have in a relationship.

  And thinking about your vision for your future might have to come earlier in a relationship's timeline when it involves somebody who is considering serving overseas. Because that changes the dynamic of the relationship so much, that they might have to have those discussions at an earlier point, than maybe they would naturally. 

  Maybe not like first date type thing, but  

  maybe though, 

  third, like, hey, just a heads up thinking to move abroad. 

  Yeah. 

  as we're developing this relationship. That's a, I get Yeah, that's a big deal.

  Definitely. So Carla, you mentioned, like looking back at the original space where like you were called. And so I'm just curious can you guys like walk me through that? Like I am in this process and I could think of ideas and spaces where like my original calling was, but I dunno, it was missions night at a church camp maybe?

  Or was it while I was studying at university? I don't know. So I'm curious, like, use me as a case study. How would you guys walk somebody through

   So you have had an experience of some kind with God where you are sensing a call to serve? 

  Yeah, it's super general though. Like I feel like I've been called to love people well wherever I 

  Mm. 

  And I think I'm been really uniquely equipped. And so like there's specific spaces that I just can do that better because of my experience I've had. But I also don't wanna be like limited to only trying to serve in the ways that I feel comfortable or

  capable. of

  doing it.

  'cause I

  know God can use us in really unique ways that we're not

  expecting.  

  What's happening within me right now is I am just automatically putting my, not putting myself, I'm in this conversation with Michael Proctor.

  Yeah. And I am now seeking to like, invite you into to walk with one collective and work with us. Yeah. So what I would do is I have just a series of questions that I ask, and we don't have to make this an official interview, right now, but it's like I would ask you things like, um. What are your skills? 

  Yeah.

  Which I know when I first came to one collective, that was one of the first questions you asked me.

  And I said, videography. And at the time I literally was like, barely, I barely knew what I was doing. And 

  knew. I think I remember 

  and you were like, great, you wanna go to Bulgaria, Albanian, South Africa And 19-year-old

  me was like, heck yeah.

  It

  was a developing skill.

  Yeah.

  And luckily, like that trip was postponed a couple times, thank God, because my skills developed a

  lot

  during the times.

  It was

  Well. But yeah, that was a really helpful  

  question.

  Maybe

  partly the way I'm, I'm what I want say here is that for someone exploring like it's, we ask a series of questions to really get to know them as well as we can, and then see if there is a pathway that makes sense for them to work maybe with one of our locations around the world doing something that you are really passionate about.

  I see. And then we would ask are you drawn to any parts of the world? Yeah. Are you drawn to work with any certain demographics? But it takes time. Yeah. There's no one interview that brings us to an answer. Yeah. It takes time reflecting prayer, but that has to happen over time. 

  Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I know we chatted off and on I think it was like three years before I ended up going 

  abroad. Really? Okay. I think so. Yeah. Partly COVID was in the mix. I  

  that definitely delayed. it like 

  I tell a lot of people that time is a great clarifier.

   As it is with relationships as well. And I think, I mean, you're sensing a pull at this. Point in your life or even a year ago in your life to have a new experience to serve and use your skills in a new context and a new capacity. And I think like you don't wanna ignore that pole, that sense that God might be opening a door for you somewhere and asking you to walk through.

  And so then you have to weigh what are your other values in your life? What are things

  that

  might be really good that might be enriching to your life, but. That, may limit you, from being able to have the fullest experience here and relationships may or may not be a part of that equation.

  And like last year when you evaluated this, it was a really big part of this equation to the point where you made the decision to wait knowing too that this invitation might, remain open. Where like this relationship needed your current attention and the invitation to serve or to move or to have this new experience, could be on the table later.

  That you might be able to take that up at a different point. And so I think like looking at, the timing of these things is also really important as you're evaluating. This potential relationship or current relationship and the opportunity to serve.  

  It's kind of an all encompassing process.

  It's not something that we're essentially just trying to figure out. There is that part of it. We want to use our conscious mind to figure things out. But Gabor mate, my favorite. Canadian physician says that our conscious minds are only 6% of our evaluative faculties. the rest of it is all internal.

  It's subconscious. Trying to figure things out with absolute certainty and clarity often isn't possible. And I will sometimes share with people, a quote by Mother Theresa where, this ethicist, I forget his name, asked her on a visit to Calcutta, will you please pray for me? She said, how would you like me to pray for you?

  Pray that I have certainty about a matter. And she laughed and she said, he said, she said, that's the last thing I'm gonna pray about for you. And he said, you always seem like so confident and certain. And she said, no, I don't have certainty. I have trust. And so very often, many of our people will get to a place where maybe they're 80% certain about the way forward, or 65 or 91, but there has to come a step where you're a place where you're gonna step into the unknown with a level of trust in the God that you are in relationship  

  yeah, like how do we get to that place? Because I'm reflecting and thinking about, I was at times 50, 50 at times 20, 80, and I felt like I was just fluctuating so much. What percentage do I hit before I make that choice? And

  then

  how spell formula 

  is,  

  I wanna formula  

  I know sometimes  

  our

  actions actually proceed like our feelings. In this area, we have to take an action and place our trust in the Lord by taking a step forward and knowing that maybe our feelings will follow. so it's not always that it's leading with oh, I feel like I

  can

  and then I'll make that decision and then I'll take that action.

  So I think it's about sensing and discerning where he's calling you to be obedient in like just one step. Yeah. And having faith in the future. And having faith that like, is God really a good father? Who wants the best thing for you in your life and wants to give you good gifts and not just teach you hard lessons.

  That was a thing I had to learn through relationships, through experiences that I had, that he wasn't just putting relationships in my life to like teach me hard lessons and help me like sharpen, myself and become holier really. He wanted to give me good gifts to bless me, and that also involves saying no to a relationship.

  It involves saying no to some other things that. I, was questioning the value of, and was questioning whether these were from God. But when I really saw him as a good father who wanted what's absolutely best for me and wanted to bless me, then I think it, things became clearer, in my life.

  And I was able to move forward and trust knowing that good things were ahead. Not that I had said no to something. So then that was my one and only chance. But that good things were truly ahead and, and that played out, in my life and good things were ahead. So

  I think, that trust

  in father and your good

  father thing to  

  remember.

  That's hard to remember because I think oftentimes, and I think a lot of other people probably feel this, that there's one right answer. Yeah. And I think oftentimes God is more like, Hey, you have. Free will and I have created you with free will and choice. And I want you to choose me, but I also want you to like, to use the power of free will, which I've given you, and to choose what is good and what you also desire.

  And I, and I want that to align also with what I desire. And I think the fear is I have two doors that are open and it feels like God's opened both of them. But I still could choose the wrong one and then like God would be disappointed in me, life would be terrible if I choose like the wrong one.

  And I'm always fearful of will I choose correctly? 

  I you're right that's a pretty common, way of seeing this topic. Sometimes I tell people, if it's someone whose heart seems to be really in a great place, I will tell them, you're not gonna miss it. I don't think God is up there with these two doors and better pick the right one, or you're gonna get on my bad list.

  I don't think he does that. I think that's a false construct. He's a kind father and he wants to give us good things. Yeah. And he will in this area as well. It's a big area, big topic like relationships and going overseas, but I don't think we're gonna miss it. Hmm. 

  Okay. A few things are coming to mind and a lot of fears I think are coming to mind for me. One is the fear of making a decision too quickly because of the pressure of trying to move abroad, which is kind of what I mentioned with this girl I was dating last year, that the decision we came to was we get married and move abroad and I was really struggling with the sense of is this a good motivator to expedite the decision of getting married or does this relationship and decision need more time to be made? 'Cause I could see a lot of people, maybe you guys, I, I'm curious, have you guys seen people make a decision to get married or to save the relationship and then go abroad and move together or.

  I

  don't know. Have you guys seen that story play out

  before?  '

  I have seen that before. But I think that's a temptation of a lot of people is, to rush so that you can kind of make both things possible. 

  Yeah.

  Right. Because that's like ideal. I don't have to choose, I just get both best of both worlds.  

  Right? Yes.

  I

  would

  caution,

  however Okay.

  that

  what are the negative consequences of waiting to make a decision and thinking through? All those potential consequences. Yeah. And evaluating whether they're worth actually rushing into that decision, because I think in most cases, time as Mark said, is actually helpful.

  And that applies to relationships too. And it also could apply to the decision making process of choosing to serve overseas. 

  But Carly, I'm getting older, like 

  the

  clock is  

  ticking. Like, isn't that true? 

  To some extent, sure. But, um, if you look at the big picture of things and the big picture of your life,

  um, keep in perspective.

  It is hard to keep in perspective, but. The amount of time that we're talking about here is minimal as you look at the whole scope of your life. And if you made a potentially, serious decision that would have real consequences too soon, that can be, much more detrimental than waiting another year to make that decision.

  And maybe you'd land in that same place, but maybe you wouldn't and you would've had that extra time to sew into your relationship too, and to get to know each other better and to evaluate more if you're compatible long term, and if this is truly God's plan for you and for that person. So I think actually time is on your side here.

  And rushing into a decision is strongly advised against in. 

  you know, Michael,

  you said I'm getting old. Okay. Yeah. To the degree that, that's like a legitimate perspective of yours right now, what emotions are going on within you regarding that? 

  Yeah. I would say really bluntly how I feel right now is. I am 25 and like the feeling very specifically I have is my brother's married and he and his wife want to have kids

  soon. Yeah. And I

  want to have my kids grow up with his kids 'cause we're identical twins and it'd be so fun.

  But I am not married and I want to go spend a year abroad and then come back and thinking through everything.

  I'm like, all right, I at least gotta date somebody for a year. And then we at least gotta be married for two years probably before we pop out any kids. And this timeline's looking like I'm not gonna have kids until I'm like 30, 32 maybe. And that's if the timeline works out perfectly. And so it feels like right now I could go on a date with this girl, I'm met at the coffee shop Monday and like start that relationship and explore it.

  Or I can go abroad, spend a year abroad. Growing and experiencing different cultures and experiencing God in new ways and then coming back and like looking for somebody, but also like, I guess I could meet somebody while I'm there. Exactly. There's nothing against that. But it just feels like that is, much less plausible to happen.

  But I also just genuinely don't know, like I am, I don't know. What does living in Spain look like? What does dating in Spain look like? I have zero idea. I don't even know Spanish now. How would I talk to the person? 

  Yeah. Boy, that's a lot there, when you moved from Lincoln, which where you're from, I think. Up to Elgin, Illinois a few years  

  Yeah.  

  Did you think that Oh, man. To go to Elgin? There might not. I might miss out on people who are in Lincoln. That could be part of my future. 

  Yeah. I didn't think that because Lincoln's this tiny rural town and I'm like, Elgin's got way better possibilities 

  Yeah. But I'm thinking like, like if someone, I was thinking of this earlier, 

  but that is a good question. If 

  Someone chooses to go to a college in Indiana. Alright. They choose therefore not to go to a college in anywhere else, like in California.

  Okay. So that means this pool of potential future partners, it doesn't exist for them. The word decision comes from it's either Greek or Latin word means to cut off any other possibilities. So you go here and that kind of becomes your pool of potential partners, at least for a while. And the mission's question is a bigger, on a larger scale, right?

  You're going to a different culture, different country. But the thing is, we don't go or stay. We don't know who God, what God's up to. Absolutely. We don't know who those potential people are. For us. We have no idea. And so that's where trust has to play a  

  role. Gotta have faith 

  And surrendering your control of your own timeline, of the expectations of your timeline in your head.

  I mean, when I was formerly engaged at like age 25 and I thought, okay, here's a vision for my future, a specific timeline for my future that I could see play out. That was kind of in line with my expectations. Then when I chose to break off that engagement, that was a full surrender of the future. Yeah.

  Because it was like, what if this never happens again? What if I, what if it takes me 10 years to find someone? What if I, just said goodbye to my only potential for 

  Yeah. And that's the fear is I will never find love again.

  fear.  

  That is the fear Many people have. But I think that is what we are called to surrender, whether or not we're serving vocationally, overseas or whether we're staying here.

  We as followers of Jesus are handing over that timeline, those expectations for our own life to where God would lead us. 

  Yeah, it's, if I haven't found the person, the right person for me yet, if I go overseas another country, will I miss my right person? 

  Oh yeah. I felt that. 

  Yeah.

  You could ask the question, the flip of that, will staying prevent me from meeting my future spouse? Oh, interesting. Because they're both legit.  

  But that is definitely a feeling of I think maybe Elgin has the right person for me.

  There's a lot of people here that are similar to me and like, like-minded and I don't know what people are like abroad, wherever I'd move and so will I be able to find somebody like-minded, if the only Americans are the ones that are my team and my team's only 10 people, that's a small pool to choose from. 

  Is that, are you limiting yourself to  

  Maybe

  I am, I don't know, but like also the idea of dating somebody else that grew up in a whole different culture and knows is. Other language that I don't know how to speak yet, but we'll learn is really intimidating

  in 

  is intimidating. 

  Okay. Okay.  

  and and then what do you do?

  Do I just choose to live the rest of my life there with them? Do, then they move to the US and I mean, those are all questions you'd have to wrestle through while dating.  

  and

  those are questions that a number of our workers overseas are asking really?

  Because they meet someone overseas and love happens and, and then those questions become front and center.  

  Yeah. 

  I think on the front end this is a common question, will going will fulfilling this commitment, this calling in my life, mean sacrificing my dream of getting married. Will it mean giving up that dream forever of having a family?

  And I think you have to come to a point where you are okay with it going either direction because God will bring you to the place that he wants you and use you in the ways that He wants you and bring the right community around you and bring the right people in your life if you are walking in obedience to him.

  And if you are living in communion with him. And  

  so

  whether you go or stay, 

  whether you go or stay, right? Like you could end up single here too, even if you want to be married and want to have a family. And also trusting that he knows your desires, that he wants good things for you, and that if he brings you the right person, that will happen here or there too. And so I think like being comfortable or being willing to live in that space, live in that uncertainty and still take those steps forward. Is the right mindset to be in. And then what we often see is people are surprised with who God brings to their path.  

  Yeah.  

  happens  

  whether that's, whether that's a national, in the country where they're serving, whether that's, an American either with one collective or, you know, in some other capacity living overseas, or whether that's somebody they meet online, even like here in the States, and then have to determine where, what their futures will look like together.

  It doesn't mean closing the door to love altogether. And we've seen that time and time again that when people leave for the field single, that does definitely not mean that they're gonna remain single on the field. I 

  I

  think I, like me and maybe everyone else, and my position just needs to keep remembering that yeah, moving abroad does not mean you will be single, it actually really does not change hardly  

  It's almost irrelevant.  

  Wow. You, You,

  would say it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I will keep saying those words. Mark says it's irrelevant. You'll meet somebody  

  I, I, I mean, I mean there are different factors of course, but I don't think it directly affects whether you will find a long-term loving  

  relationship.

  Yeah, that makes sense. 

  And several of our leaders around the world have actually become relationship experts, um, by seeing, many of their teammates navigate this process for themselves and provide counsel and coaching and walking with them, supporting them through this process. Whether that means they're like.

  in a long distance relationship or they're navigating the challenges of that, or whether they meet someone on the field and they're discerning what could be the future here. Whether they're just, struggling with singleness and loneliness. That's something that a lot of our field leaders have come to.

  Yeah. Kind of embody like as a mentor role in, in many of our workers' lives. Just observing those relational, 

  Is there a team that has the highest marriage, like success rate or dating success

  rate  

  You want us to name teams?  

  Maybe

  not. No. 

  Some 

  is funny though. That is it makes sense.

  Yeah, because a lot of, like the best season of life to move abroad and have this experience is like right. When you're graduating school and you don't have a career, you don't have a family. You're not 

  the least amount of  

  And that's what I feel right now. I'm like, this is the best time of my life to, to try and do this and get this experience. 

  Absolutely.

  And when I talk to college students in classrooms, I will make this very point that this is the optimal time in five years from now. I say this, five years from now or eight years from now, you will look back on this time and you'll say, boy, I was so free then. Yeah. And yet, and so it makes it an optimal time Yeah.

  To go. 

  Yeah. So the theme I'm hearing over and over again is surrender. And trust God with your future. Whether that is you stay or you go

  and

  have patience.

  I feel like those are the two things I keep hearing you guys say, which are really hard things to do. I feel like I have things that call me out on both of those. Often, and I'm like, man, I've not surrendered this thing. Or I've retaken control of these decisions in my life all the time. And I feel like it's always a process of re,

  re, surrendering things to God.

  And that's

  really hard,

  but it is necessary. 

  Yeah. I would just say to that, Michael, that your tendency to like take things back, God doesn't look at you and judge you for that.

  You're fine. You can relax and you're fine with that.

  Just continue to listen love and his words to you and continue moving forward in your process. He doesn't condemn us. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't shame us. He's kind. Yeah. He's kind to you no matter what.  

  I just think of like prodigal son coming home. And hopefully you're not to the extreme of the prodigal son, but like, it kind of is that way.

  Like God is always delighted when you come back to him with, at whatever

  level it

  is. Okay. So, as I'm considering moving abroad, I would look at different organizations and I've found that organizations have very different beliefs on dating.

  And some are even saying you are not allowed to date if you commit to going abroad for say, a year because they say that's a distraction, which I would agree with, but might also be frustrated about. So what's one collective's perspective or take on that, and how do they navigate that in a healthy way?

  Because I think there are some like, healthy boundaries with that. 

  Yeah, I think that's a great question to be asking. One collective has chosen not to have an official policy on dating because it is such an individual question that you have to wrestle with yourself and you have to think through what's right for your situation and how the Lord is speaking to you and working in your life.

  So we don't have a policy that outlines like what's allowed and what's not allowed. However, I think it's really important to have open communication with your supervisor, which in many cases is your team leader here, with one collective about, your vision for the future, your desires, your current relationship status, challenges in your relationship.

  Because this isn't just a job, it is a life that you're gonna be living in community with people who you're serving alongside, and you should be willing to share. All aspects of your life together. And so often our leaders can offer really good wisdom or other team members who have gone through this maybe are, who are a few steps ahead.

  They can offer really good wisdom to consider and just be like a supportive ear. Somebody who can, sit with you and walk with you on this road. And in some cases our teams do have guidelines, different teams with different guidelines about how focused on language learning and culture adaptation and adjustment you need to be for the first six months or so.

  And dating might be discouraged during that period,

  or  

  be a huge  

  it could be  

  distraction. From like important things to actually  

  Yeah. And so having that open line of communication, just from the beginning, from even the application process, I think is really helpful in understanding what's gonna work best in that particular country, where you're looking at service and with the team dynamics that are at play there.

  And then also, knowing that your team leaders and the people who are around you and in community with you, want the best for you. They don't wanna limit you. They're not trying to prohibit you from finding love. They really want what's best for you. And so they're supporting you in this whole journey, and they're just trying to, provide the best outcomes for you. 

  Yeah. I would add that, just in general, this is one collective general. We have really. Kind, policies across the board that, most of our, I think almost all of our people find to be very helpful and not constricting and life giving, and this is an example of that.

   Yeah, I agree. I think it's freeing. 

  It's freeing. I'll just add too, Carly to what you said. You already said this, but like in mobilization, our job as the, as the gateway, we're the first people to talk with new people exploring us. Yeah. It is really our, initially our responsibility to get to know people as well as we can, including their relationship.

  dynamics.  

  Okay, What are some other questions? I or somebody in my position should be asking as it relates to relationships and serving a abroad? 

  The only one I would add is, of course you're single Michael, so you're not asking a question as a married man, but a married couple when they apply to us, and are accepted, we want, we look for them to be married for about a year, is the general policy before we would want them to deploy.

  I see. Exactly. And so there is that, that, that is kind of a, a timeframe that is, I think in our policy or manual somewhere. It is, but it's also not a rigid one. Every case we look at individually, we've made. E exceptions probably going one direction or the other on that. And again, the purpose is we care about people and want the best for them and for our teams.

  And so that's a policy we have for married couples. Okay,  

  So if you're engaged or married, then you'd be looking at possibly extending, you know, your onboarding, to like make sure that you're in the healthiest space possible and that you've had time to live together and like, you know, interact with each other on, on a familiar territory before moving

  to

  Unfamiliar.  

  I see. Yeah, that makes

  This has been super helpful guys, and as I continue my journey, I will continue to ask you guys 'cause I have access to you and you guys have so much wisdom and experience in this space, and so I really value your guys' input on

  this

  and I think a lot of other people will too.

  And so, um, I just wanna like summarize like the highlight of this, which I think is when you're looking at serving abroad and you feel that tension of, do I, the tension between dating and the desire to serve abroad. The answer to that would you say is surrender your desire to God and surrender this decision to God and be patient, would you say like that's, that's the key takeaway? 

  Yeah, I think that's, that's, on the right track for sure. And I think, another thing like truth that you can rest in is that, the choices that you make, the path that you follow will be a part of the road, the journey that leads you to your potential spouse and to God's will for your life, and choosing to do one thing or another will not keep you from love, and it will not necessarily lead you to love. It's all just a part of God's will and how that's manifesting in your life. 

  I'll just add the phrase, put your

  yes on the table to whatever God leads you to do.

   I will continue

  to do that

  to the best of my ability.

  Well thank you guys for listening to this episode of The Last and Change podcast in this miniseries we're gonna be tackling some more hard questions that likely a lot of people thinking about serving abroad are probably asking. And so, um, be looking for the next one coming up in a couple weeks.

  And, if you want resources, there's resources and episode description. And if you're looking at serving, feel free to sign up for a time to talk with Carly or Mark they would love to walk you through this process.

Trailer: Torn Between

Trailer | 2 Minutes | Sept 1, 2025

A series about the fears and questions that come with moving abroad.

You feel called to cross-cultural work, and you are actually considering committing to it. But alongside that calling is a wave of uncertainty:

🎧 Listen on Spotify | 🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts

---

How will I make money? What do I do about my relationship? How is my family going to respond to this?

What if I don’t feel ready? What if I never feel ready?

Torn Between is a mini-series created for people who want to move abroad for cross-cultural work but feel stuck in the tension of fear, uncertainty, and desire.

This isn’t a podcast full of answers. It’s a space to name the doubts and fears you’ve been carrying and realize you’re not the only one. Because the path to serving isn’t always clear—and that’s not a disqualifier. It’s a starting point.

Hosted by Mark and Carley who help others take the leap abroad—and Michael who’s standing on the edge himself. These are honest, personal conversations with no easy answers-just good questions and a few next steps forward.

---

• About the Host

  Michael is a storyteller, creative, and missions advocate who brings honesty and vulnerability to every conversation. As someone navigating his own calling and relationship questions, he represents the heart of the Torn Between audience—asking the questions many are afraid to voice out loud.

  Mark has spent years walking with people discerning cross-cultural work. With a calming presence and deep well of experience, he offers wisdom, perspective, and a gentle challenge to trust God through uncertainty and transition.

  Carly brings warmth, insight, and lived experience to the table. Having served overseas herself and now guiding others on their journey, she speaks with compassion about the real tensions people face and helps ground big decisions in trust and grace.

• Trailer Transcript

  Okay, you’re graduating or maybe you already did. And now you’re staying down a question that’s way bigger than you’re integrating, which is What the heck am I actually supposed to do with my life? It’s a fun place to be in, but all the opportunities can feel super overwhelming. At least If you’re somebody that feels this, but one of the things you’re pulled towards is cross-cultural work. Living abroad doing something good then we made a podcast for you. Torn Between is a podcast by one collective for anyone that wants to do cross-school work abroad, but feels stuck in the tension of fear, uncertainty, and desire. This podcast is hosted by Mark and Carly. Here’s Carly. Carly, say hello. Hey Carly, and then also hosted by Mark. This is our other podcast host, Mark. Say hello. They are super wise people. Their full-time job is related just to help people move abroad and overcome fears and doubts that are holding their lives. And lastly, I will be the other host. But not as a guide, but instead as somebody that is considering what it’s like to move abroad for cross-cultural work. These are raw and personal conversations. There are no answers in this podcast, but a lot of good questions, good conversation, and maybe a few steps forward that you can relate with. So if you’re stuck in the feeling of how do I actually commit to moving abroad for cross-cultural work, this podcast is for you and I hope you enjoy us as we explore a bunch of the different fears and big questions that keep people from following their calling.